to think that people who don't approve of parents who put their children in childcare should not work in a nursery..

[AtheneNoctua]

where parents are putting their kids into their care whilst they work. Are they not enabling the very system of which they so disapprove?

AS far as I know there is no scientific evidence that suggest parrent who work love their children less than parents who don't.

I think the OP on that particular thread had valid opinions, tbh. She's in the front line .. maybe she saw things that unsettled her.

There's room for every opinion on here.

And for what it's worth, if I was a nursery teacher, I probably wouldn't want my kid in a nursery all day either. Most nursery teachers I know are not preparing to put their kids into nursery full time. I think that is quite telling, actually.

I worked as a courier on coaches for fifteen years, and I'd never get on another one now.

Sometimes, you can know too much.

I did walk for 3mths on the other side of working I found exactly what Lupo has said and my dd was with a CM. She was 7mths when she started and hated being dropped off and cried with relief when I picked up. Literally throwing herself at me I decided it was too much for her to be in CC for 40hrs per week and missed so much of her development in 3mths My view was I needed a career but my dd would only be little for a short time and it is my responsibility to shape her as a person, not someone elses. My dd needed me more than I needed a career, careers can be reclaimed when children go to school, childhood is lost forever. You can't relive those years.

There is a huge difference between parents needing to work to put food on the table and those that choose to work for a life of luxury in material things. To me the latter is just shallow and is of no benefit to a child. What a child needs are parents that do things with him/her. Have fun, enjoy being with them and love them more than their selves IMHO.

I agree with Tori.

I think it is fundamentally wrong to put your child into care from 8 in the morning until 6 at night.

If you think you have to do that, then you should think again. That's a long day for an adult, let alone a small baby/toddler.

My step mother is a university lecturer in law. Interestingly, her pupils (in their early twenties now), had that type of up-bringing .. and they hated it.

They are, to a man/woman, vehement that they will either work from home or work part-time. They are equally vehement that, however their careers go, they will either stay at home or employ a child minder in the home, and work as little as possible in the 'office.'

This is probably the first generation of kids speaking out about their experience of 'child-care' in the modern age.

They don't like it, and you can kick up as much as you like about that, but it's the truth.

Tori and Desiderata , you have said exactely what I have been trying to convey - especially about working in a profession like childcare you do get to see and know too much and this def puts you off.

I know that this makes uncomfortable reading but many people working in childcare are young, inexperienced and badly paid, i am the latter but I do have the experience of being a mum and I feel that this makes me react to the kids in a dift and more compasionate way to some of the youngsters I work with. They havent been mums themselves and can't always relate.
They may think a child is playing up, when the child is actually hungry or overtired or something

Mine had a nanny when they were little, and a couple of short bursts at nursery, but I would add that I didn't work long hours when I got pregnant. The long hours came shortly after I'd had DD1 when my career suddenly took off. I hope you'll agree that it was a bit late then to do anything about it.

We certainly don't have a life of luxury and lots of material things. I am the breadwinner. We couldn't have survived on DH's salary if I had stayed at home to be with the children. And I would have gone round the bend and neither I nor the DDs would have enjoyed me being a SAHM.

Aaah, now I see it. I used a nursery because I didn't love my children enough. Thanks for pointing that out Tori. Next you'll be decrying women getting the vote, because they obviously didn't love their husbands enough.

Desiderata, now you make an interesting and rather less rancid point. I work in Investment banking and am also seeing the most incredible attitudes coming across from new graduates and applicants - they all seem to think that work is one of life's many interesting options, rather than a raison d'etre, which is what I, and many of my generation grew up to believe. Graduates are saying that they want short hours and sabbaticals and so on, as if the firm exists to amuse them (and not run them into the ground. The Fools!). It will be really interesting to see how this all plays out (I think by the way that the long hours culture we currently have is wrong, but the graduates might be a little too extreme in their views)

But, I don't see any link between this current attitude and the childcare they have received; student children of friends I know who were brought up by mums at home say exactly the same stuff which leads me to think that there are other causes to hand - quite probably the materialism they have been surrounded in from the moment they were born.... don't know the answer to that one. But I don't think it is anything to do with childcare experiences - not least because I worked for 5 years for a Stockholm-based company and that attitude is definately not in existence there, even though nurseries are the norm and have been for a long time.

One thing I am not sure gets pointed out enough though on all of this is that this WOHM bashing is particularly vile when you consider that the people you are attacking are the very ones who have no choice. Every person I know who lives in a large house and could downsize has a committed experienced nanny at home, and we don't use nurseries on anything like the basis that is suggested. Where we do use nurseries (and we do, quite often) is to introduce our kids to a social setting and give them some variety and so on. The only peope who do use nurseries for 50 hours or wahtever a week are I believe those people stuck in the middle of society who really don't have the same downsize options and need to use these options to pay the mortgage and so on, not because they want to. And these are the very people who struggle most with stress - not the SAHM or the WOHM who work through choice (there is research to back this - I can find it if anyone wants). It kind of seems to be that some MNers are just kicking people when they're down. Which my WOHM, neglectful, less loving mum always taught me wasn't nice.

YANBU

This thread isn't about whether or not women should work full time. It is about whether it is hypocritical to work in a place whose very reason for existing you don't support.

Let's take another example. I work in the oil industry. If I was a tree hugger and an active member of Green Peace, then one might question why I work where I do. But, since I'm neither of those things, I can believe in what I do for living.

AtheneNoctura,
Nurseries cater for babies and todlers, and for those who attend part time or full time. I think the OP of that thread didn't say she is against the idea of Nurseries in general but about very little babies who spend 50 hours there. Working hours in U>K> ARE very long comparing to other european countries. And to be honest when i was 20 years old and worked in a horible nursery we all the staff used to question that because we had some 3 months old babies who spend there 50 hours. We didnt discuss it in a bad way through.Anyway it is up to each parent to deside.
But, did anyone ask the OP WHY did she say that? Did you ever think that perhaps she witnessed smth in the nursery that made her sad about the babies and perhaps her sadness came out as agression?
And i m saying this because when i worked in that nursery i 've witnessed smth happened to a little girl and i ve cried that night. The next morning the father of the girl spoke to the manager and she managed to fool him so he told his little girl off for lying (!!!). I ve become so angry and started shouting at the poor man, it was my sadness for the little girl and my frustration for the naive father that turned into agression.
I wish we havn't attacked the OP and asked her calmly what makes her to say this, sometimes you learn useful things from people who work inside an idustry...it is just a thought.
And i dont think that the problem with nurseries is the staff. Most of them are very good at their job-and honestly it is very hard job. The problem is the enormous amount of paperwork they have to do.
I think there are few of them on mumsnet, why not we ask them and listen to them? (my experience of nurseries not very valid as it has been years ago and i m sure things have changed a lot, i hope so. But some others who work now in Nurseries they could perhaps tell us.
Sorry for long post.

All I can say is a its a bloody good job there are those of us who pay huge sums of maoney to leave our children with you lot for 12 hours aday otherwise you wouldnt have any jobs!!!

Yes it is hypocritical to openly condemn a parent's choice of childcare whilst acually providing that same childcare service for them.

It is also naive and narrow minded.

I was a parent who used 10hrs/day of childcare for a 4mth old baby (on average twice a week - but enough I am sure to have raised eyebrows from some quarters). I would have be appalled if I had thought that my baby's carer didn't approve of me leaving him with her. It never even entered my mind that she might have disapproved. I loved her for loving my baby and taking care of him in my place. It was her job.

Often the field of work or life with which we are most expert and familiar is the one where we discuss subjects with the most passion and insight, and it is human nature to analyse and question both our own and other people's motivations.

But openly criticizing clients in any business - and expecially parents who use your childcare service - is both rude and unprofessional.

So if someone works in Macdonalds they have to automatically agree with obesity because some people gorge themselves with fast food?

No, of course not. The point is that because a facility is there whether it be to feed yourself or look after your children, you have to use it to the best benefit of those involved, be it yourself or your children.

Being in a childcare facility for 10/12 hrs every day will have an impact on the child. It is up to us as parents to recognise that and prepare for what that impact is.

UN you have missed the point that the impact could be both positive as well as negative.

My DD was in daycare for 10 hours a day from 9 weeks and 6 days old. She is a bright, intelligent ,funny and gorgoeusly well rounding girl of 9.

As the squiff says earlier why do all you SAHM's feel the need to be so damn rude about those of us who work for a living.

Are you simply jealous that we for the most part can have it all ?

What makes you think I am a SAHM DB?

Your opinion.............maybe Im wrong !

That thread is moronic. Ignore it.

If they feel sorry for the children in their care, then they might treat them extra nice

Yes - you are wrong. And you are obviously not as nosey as me as i look at people's profiles!!

Anyway, my point was/is the impact on our children, which we have to accept. You are lucky - a positive impact. Others may not be and it have a negative impact.

Either way - I think in any working enviroment we are allowed to agree or disagree with our employers/customers without a cry of "get another job then" being called.

If someone cares so much about my dc that they ask how i can bear to be away from them for 10/12hrs a day I dont mind that. Maybe I am unusual, but I would prefer they ask that than not care tuppence

UN I do sometimes but I am still in the office and shouldnt really be on Mumsnet at all............!!!

And why the hell do people post on a thread/bumping it up/saying "ignore this thread it's moronic"

Now that's weird and moronic!

Have many people actually learn anything, change their opinions or come away from feeling anything but friustration from this sort of thread, UN? Has their been a real exchange of sensible views here? On any of these threads? Ever? It's like Groundhog Day. These silly WOHM vs SAHM type threads never achieve anything. Think me moronic if you will, but I am not the one engaged in a pointless 'debate' that won't actually affect anyone's real life. Ever.

Excuse mispellings and poor grammar. I'm exhausted.

Well dont post then

Oh FGS. I shan't post. I'm too bored by it to make the effort.