Andy Burnham is just a dumbed down version of Starmer

[WarmHiker]

Just caught a snippet of some confident sounding commentator on tv repeating a line that you tend to hear in all news programmes. That Burnham is personable and has charisma. That line is starting make me think that as a country, the tyranny of low expectations has really hit a new low.

First thing’s first, when did saying ‘isn’t it’ after every sentence pass for charisma. Is the bar for charisma really that low.

Second, the guy’s failed upwards into a job that he’s clearly not fit for. His answer to everything is ‘Booses’.

The economy is on fire, buses. Immigration is out of control, buses. Crime is a problem, buses. We have the most expensive energy, buses. Industry and businesses are shutting down, buses.

He’s basically a small town mayor who accidentally became the prime minister because the quality of talent in parliament is non existent. Manchester is not a small town but running buses in Manchester doesn’t make you fit to be a PM. He was a failed health secretary, failed to be Labour leader twice when he actually had to have proper fight, somehow grifted his way to a mayor job for a decade. And yes his predecessors were any better. But why all the fawning over Burnham.

AIBU to think that we are headed towards a point soon when the public turns on him. He’s utterly out of his depth and the false shine will wear off in no time. A General election is looming.

All in all, so sad to see that this is the calibre of person at the top of government. What has happened to this country that no one smart wants to go anywhere politics.

I agree it’s not really relevant as national interest, and what that is, is where people can differ anyway.

It’s a tiresome trope that the wealthy and selfish vote Tory, while the virtuous and those who really care about others vote Labour. I’d rather someone just admitted. “I am incapable of independent thought, will ignore the red flags and will go to any lengths to defend the indefensible". The good old Martyrs oath.

Left wing, middle class women congratulating themselves on helping “the poor” afford a £2 bus fare is not the flex they think it is.

As PP said the £2 bus fare means a lot to her and others. I am happy for them, but it is relatively small beer. The anti-Burnham posse on this thread are the ones who have been playing it up.

We have the second highest wealth distribution gap in the G7, behind only the US. We have the lowest or second lowest total domestic business investment in the G7, and this has been consistent for decades. British workers have access to 47% fewer advanced tools than their peers in other G7 countries. Only Canadian firms have a lower total private R&D (research and development) budget.

All of these statements can be easily validated online from excellent sources.

Instead of investment, there has been a focus on short term returns for shareholders. And we have very few shareholders when compared across the G7. The few holding shares get richer, everyone else is at the mercy of the property market. It isn’t good for the country.

If the Tories and/or New Labour were really concerned about business, they would have developed policies to encourage thoughtful investment. I am certainly willing to give Burnham a chance to change this.

Are you the pro Burnham posse then.

I’ve said more than once here that I wish him well. as I wish every new PM well, think he has potential, but am reserving judgment. Not part of any posse, though I accept that is a difficult position for some on this thread to get their heads round.

I think she meant all the shagging around.

As I mentioned in my previous post. Bus fare, full stop, was a luxury to me growing up let alone cheaper bus fare so I absolutely get how significant a £2 bus fare is.

You wrote you comment from the perspective of that of a middle class woman. I wrote my comment to demonstrate my utter contempt for the trope that Labour supporters are more altruistic.

So others are in a ‘posse’ but you don’t like the same in return.

It’s not difficult btw it’s more your language isn’t wanted back.

I have no objection to the word when it is accurate.

Great I’ll use it for you as you’d like to for others.

My perspective is that of someone with a professional interest in UK manufacturing policy. I am not aware that this is linked to class background, except insofar as, sadly, educational opportunities are. Though much less in my home country than in the UK.

Given that you have a deep understanding of the importance of affordable bus fares, and get the significance of the £2 cap, why aren’t you crediting Burnham with a small win on this? You clearly suffered, and I am sorry about that. Does this mean everyone else should, also?

Again, the man has only been an MP since 4 July and only been PM since 17 July. Before that he did not have the access to Whitehall and party machinery to start planning how to govern.

But I am not particularly pro Burnham, so that is a big difference. I felt about equally positive towards May, Sunak and Starmer.

You keep saying he didn’t have access to Whitehall machinery. He was plotting his overthrow of Starmer with Labour insiders who would have had connections to a range of ministers and civil servants working in a Labour government. Probably at a greater advantage than being in the shadow cabinet. Particularly if we are to believe Reeves’ narrative at her first budget that she knew nothing of the ‘black hole’.

Civil servants are not allowed to help an usurper. That is a grave offence. Informally, the same is true for ministers. No better way to ruin your reputation.

“You clearly suffered, and I am sorry about that.”
It shaped me, but did I say I suffered or ask for your pity? I know poverty and struggle from experience was the point. It has given me a different perspective on what meaningful help might actually look like. As does my criticism of all parties.

“Does this mean everyone else should, also?”
Where have I suggested that? My criticism is of mismanagement by successive governments. So far, Labour and AB have given me no reason to believe they are any different.

“Before that he did not have access to Whitehall and party machinery to start planning how to govern.”
This is hardly his first rodeo in Whitehall. He is a former Cabinet minister and had already run unsuccessfully for the Labour leadership twice. What about his own words back in July: “I know what I want to do” and “I have a plan”? So where are the details? Why shouldn’t we question how prepared the man with “a plan” really is?

Pity is a different emotion and not one I feel for you. Your general orientation as expressed on this thread seems to be against benefits. In my observation that causes suffering, which was the reason for my question.

Mismanagement is a problem. The question is how to correct it in a humane manner.

IME accomplishing anything in government is like turning an ocean liner. It is far too soon to assess Burnham.

True, Margaret Thatcher’s Chancellor introduced an emergency budget after three weeks, raising VAT to 15% and interest rates to 14%, then 17%. Doesn’t seem like a very good idea now, does it?

Even with the country united behind her because of the Falklands War, the consensus is that it took about three years before her policies had a real impact on the country.

My post above was for @NorthXNorthWest

The problem with the referendum in 2016 was that what leave exactly looked like was never defined - other than Theresa May's quote of Brexit looks like red, white and blue, which was not exactly helpful.

It was defined to a certain extent - the key players said outside of the single market:

June 12, 2016
David Cameron confirmed that he will pull Britain out of the single market if there is a vote to leave the European Union at the upcoming referendum.
The prime minister said: “What the British public will be voting for is to leave the EU and leave the single market.”
https://www.politico.eu/article/david-cameron-bbc-andrew-marr-ill-pull-uk-out-of-the-single-market-after-brexit-eu-referendum-vote-june-23-consequences-news/

19 April 2016
Thanks to Michael Gove we know that Britain's future outside the EU would also be outside the single market...
Vote Leave's future plan for the UK would be outside the EU and outside the EEA.
https://www.itv.com/news/2016-04-19/michael-gove-says-britains-future-outside-the-eu-would-also-be-outside-the-single-market-but-what-does-that-mean

22 February 2016
Leader of the UK Independence Party Nigel Farage has said that he doesn't want the United Kingdom to be a part of the the European Single Market...
https://www.cityam.com/eu-referendum-ukip-leader-nigel-farage-says-he-doesnt-want-to-be-part-of-the-european-single-market/

Annaliese Midgeley and Louise Haigh were briefing him for months before Makerfield. He has had plenty of time to create a plan. That plan is now clear. Talk up the next election, promise things for 2030 and beyond and distract everyone now with conversations about Brexit. He knows exactly what he’s doing. He’s just not governing for today.

I am not against a safety net. I am against profligate spending.

Mismanagement is a problem. The question is how to correct it in a humane manner.

"Every meeting I have is: ‘Who can we tax in order to pay benefits to others?’ They’re asking the wrong questions.” Pat McFadden

They are not looking to correct mismanagement. They are looking for ways to take more from anyone who has something to show for their hard work. The minimum becomes the benchmark, and anything you have above it becomes "wealth" and thus a target for tax.

He said he had "a plan" back in July.

The quicker solutions to revive UK manufacturing would be

1. Cheaper energy - UK has the highest industrial electricity prices in the world. No one is going to invest in manufacturing in the UK until that is resolved. They can be drastically reduced through switching the cost of renewable subsidies to general taxation and massively increasing oil and gas production.
2. Reduce regulation particularly planning permission and permitting
3. Reflect the higher carbon emissions of Chinese manufactured goods imported in to the UK with a carbon related import tariff.

He had a plan long before that. It’s all there in Head North. It’s an easy read.

If you can't see the problem with saying that people should fork out £10 to find out what AB plans are, I don't know how to help you.

When did I say that? I hear in some places public libraries still exist. If anyone is genuinely interested in Burnham’s plan it’s all there. He’s been plain about it anyway. He wants whole country prosperity and reduced inequality. It’s not as if he’s kept it a secret. Decent jobs, decent homes that aren’t dependent on where you live.