10.30-10.45pm bedtime for DD11.

[TheLivelyCat]

To think 10.30 10.45pm is too late for bedtime for DD 11 year 6.

DD 11 has allways been a "night owl" from young. She is diagnosis as Autistic, and CAMHS has done an ADHD referral too. However lately shes been falling asleep what I would consider late for her age. Even on a school night needing to be up for 7am. We start a bedtime routine taking about 1.5h. Shower, Pjs, bedtime snack etc (she won't read at bedtime). She's the type that her head hits the pillow and her mind wakes up. I have to stay with her to settle her due to anxiety, and not wanting her waking younger DD up(being as boring as possible) this can take 15 to 30mins.
On a none school night it isn't an issue as she can sleep in. She never naps.

I've been given a sleep diary to fill in with the look at percribing melatonin, but meds is a last resort, so for my own peace of mind, I'm wondering what an average bedtime is for 11 year olds, and what whould you consider too late that it causes issues.

You’ve obviously never suffered sleep problems yourself or raised children who are ND or have had other issues including bereavement, anxiety, health problems or neurodiversity. I am and I have

my mum tried the early bedtime and punishments for me, didn’t work, I simply could not sleep, she even (and this is awful) locked me in my room and took away every single book and distraction in the effort to make me sleep. Didn’t work, it just made me very distressed. Then she tried the as long as I’m in bed and quiet, gave me my books back and a radio which worked. Still wasn’t falling asleep at 9 but I was able to fall asleep at my natural time which was around 11 or 12, sometimes later. I probably needed more sleep as a teen but you simply cannot make anyone fall asleep unless their body and mind lets them.

It’s Nothing to do with raising sensible children. I have 4 sensible children too..3 out of the 4 have had sleep issues since young children. No amount of gentle, regular, quiet, routine driven bedtimes changed this and goodness me did I try.

like me they have adhd and asd

With melatonin ds gets 6-7 hours sleep a night normally broken. The specialists he is under are happy with this as he can generally function.

without melatonin he gets 2 hours at a push.

like with many things sleep norms don’t work for those who are neurodivergent!

My DC7 has an ASD diagnosis and we suspect adhd as well but getting her to sleep or stay
asleep used to be difficult, till she was 6, she barely slept for more than 8 hours, if she goes to bed early, she wakes up too early etc.
I started giving her magnesium, the proper one and it’s made such a difference. For a year now, she goes to bed (with night light ) without needing someone in her room and she’s asleep by 9:30 latest and she sleeps till 6:30 or 7 most days. I think you should investigate magnesium if you haven’t been giving it before.

It’s worth remembering too that melatonin isn’t an entirely benign option. My youngest takes it, but we did weigh up the benefits vs the down sides. It can have long term impacts (and it also reduces in effectiveness after a while). So the OP is being sensible in trying to figure out whether it’s something that is actually needed.

Yes way too late. 10pm asleep at the latest. 9pm preferably.

Ds11 has ASD and ADHD (medicated with Elvanse). He goes to bed between 8.30 and 9pm most days. Is up at 6.30/7am for school. He needs 10 hours sleep ideally. He listens to thunderstorm sounds on his Alexa to help him sleep and generally sleeps like the dead. I go to bed shortly after him and read for an hour. My light is usually out by 10.30pm. I’m also on Elvanse for ADHD and have autism.

My autistic DD (age 14) is the same. Melatonin has been amazing.

She listens to audio books on a Yoto Mini on the evenings she doesn’t take it.

Because drugging your kids should be an absolute last resort

My friends daughter is on melatonin and it’s been a game changer
she was reluctant but it’s been much better for everyone
don’t write it off I’d be pushing for it
for her
for you
for your family

Why do they need to go to bed so early at weekends and holidays? Do they get up at 7:30 every day?

No ND that we’re aware of but me and DS are natural night owls and getting up the same time at the weekend would make me shattered.

I have 3 dc with varying sleep issues due to ASD & ADHD.
People responding with their NT bedtime is absolutely irrelevant.

Odd as it sounds, we stopping evening showers definitely helped as it didn't relax my dc, quite the opposite.
We use lavender, white noise, relaxation apps etc.

Sometimes ultimately I have to leave them to settle themselves as I need to go to bed

My probably NT 10 year old has lights out for 10 on weekdays and is up by 6 or so naturally. He never needed loads of sleep and never has any issues with a late one.

My 13 year old ND daughter takes ages to fall asleep. No idea when she’s actually asleep but it’s lights out around 10 or so. Later on dance nights. She needs an alarm to get up for 630.

It can have long term side effects, so it needs to be carefully considered (my son takes melatonin because he was only sleeping 2-3 hours a night without it, but had he been getting 8 hours the risk vs benefit analysis would have been different).

This little girl was the same barely 2-4 hrs a night and then falling asleep on her desk at school so it’s worked for her but agree not everyone is the same.

My DD is autistic and waiting for adhd assessment. She’s 9 and in Y5. She’s never asleep before 10pm and is always awake before 6.30am. She’s been like this ever since she was born. As a tiny newborn baby she slept ok at night but never ever had more than two 30-40 min naps a day. When they consolidated it went down to one 70 min nap. That’s the biggest break we ever got.

I always insist on her being in bed reading or listening to an audiobook by 8.30. I think that’s the best you can do. You cannot force a child to have more sleep if they really don’t need it. Now ans again my DD will suddenly get exhausted and choose to go to bed early. She’s still always up and about early though.

I'd struggle to sleep too if I was having a bedtime snack...

I read to them (also neurodiverse) and this helps. Might not work for your child as they are all different. My kids are naturally night owls but I've had to make sure they are not asleep too late as they have to go to school the next day and are exhausted if they go to bed late. I've also found that the more overtired they get the longer it takes them to settle.

What’s the bedtime snack and could that be why she’s suddenly awake when she’s supposed to be winding down? What time do you eat dinner?

If DD can get up in the morning and isn’t struggling with tiredness then fine. My 12 yr old is in bed and lights off by 9pm. She usually falls straight to sleep. Even then it’s like waking the dead the following morning!

I have the same problem some nights my mind would not switch off. At her age, I was sleeping a lot better though because of school, and I was in bed by 10pm. I would suggest medication. I take amitryptiline which helps me relax and then I'll drift off to sleep. Does she look at screens before going to sleep?

Have you tried the magnesium gummies? We’ve started high magnesium snacks before bed (banana and milk) and gummies and they have helped. DS is 9 and AuDHD.

A bedtime snack (a banana and a glass of milk) really helped my autistic child to sleep.

Autism obviously affects her sleep patterns, so you may need specific help from a specialist in that area.
My 11 year old is a nightmare to get to sleep but horrendous behaviour if she doesn't sleep enough. She really needs to be asleep by 9/9.30pm in order to wake up 6.30/7am. Have to have reasonable wind down time and catch her sleep window. My son on the other hand just goes out like a switch has been flicked!

My 9 almost 10 yr old ds has just been diagnosed adhd with RSD and awaiting autism assessment. - never been a good sleeper and you could always tell next day when he had less sleep (we co-slept or did whatever was needed to help him get to sleep/stay asleep)
my 4dd is awaiting autism assessment.
i found with both a bath/shower before bedtime absolutely made falling asleep harder. Added an extra 30/45mins minimum.
They now have to have them as soon as we get in from school/work no later than 5:30.
ds is on waiting list for medication but I will be looking into the magnesium route as well.
As at this point I’m desperate. He is an early riser no matter how late he goes to bed but the odd mornings were he gets up later as lack of sleep catches up with him, he really struggles and because his routine or timings are out of sorts he will have meltdowns then.
I do wonder if some of his meltdowns are slightly worse/bigger because he has had less sleep lately and maybe this is contributing to it a little bit (they are worse than ever), so he puts himself under more pressure at school/doing tasks. School have also noted he is worse.

if magnesium doesn’t work definitely will be trying melatonin as feel he needs all the support he get and if a bit more sleep helps him manage the day a tiny bit more than I’m willing to try. if more sleep does not support him then we try something else.

You’ve said what I’m thinking perfectly, must be great if you and your child can sleep on command at 9pm! I’m mid 40s and battled with sleep issues since childhood, still cannot sleep before 1am despite being exhausted and now my teenager the same and it breaks my heart seeing him struggle with it too