Why are so many YP going to uni, when uni isn't right for so many YP? AIBU to think fewer YP should go to uni as it's only giving them a huge debt?

[MerryAquaKoala]

It seems such a waste of time for so many, racking up huge debt and gaining no benefit from their degree whatsoever. It seems to me that uni's accept such low grades from A Level these days, it's literally a scheme to keep money going to the university and definitely not for the benefit of the YP.

It probably even comes further back to A Levels - A Levels aren't right for so many YP yet currently it seems they're funnelled into doing them anyway.

Something doesn't feel right with it all and in the end it's a YP left with huge debt for the rest of their life (usually). Seems so wrong.

if they enjoyed it and they can afford it then it’s fine

But there’s no point complaining about the cost later … it wasn’t a secret how much it cost

I think we have to invest in viable alternatives to for the 38% that head to uni. Bearing in mind many are doing things that do require a degree like nursing or aiming to teach.

So more entry level jobs, more apprentuships (not degree because thats still doing to uni just someone else pays) but suitable and not exploitative. There are some but no way near the demand for them.

Agree, I actively discouraged my DCs from going to uni unless they had a specific career in mind that needed a certain course to qualify.

One of them googled “highest paying job without a degree” and now does that!

One did a degree apprenticeship, being paid a living wage while studying, so came out of it with £30k in savings, several amazing holiday experiences and a degree, rather than a bunch of debt. She did live at home throughout so missed out on some of the uni experience but still has a good social life and lots of friends. As part of the Covid cohort their schooling and teenage social life was interrupted and they’ve been making up for it ever since!

The other has deferred for a year while he works out what to do next, again has travelled, worked and saved, so having great experiences, growing in independence and saving rather than getting into debt. If he decides to go to uni next year it won’t be just because it’s the done thing, but because he’s given it some proper thought and chosen this path. I’m hoping he does what the others have done and finds an alternative route tbh!

I agree but this is even less likely to happen with AI destroying whole swathes of entry level work.

Employers are partly to blame too - many want graduates even for entry level jobs that 6th formers used to be able to walk into.

🤣🤣

Couldn't agree more with this comment. It's a huge issue going forward.

That's just not true though is it. I'm late 30s, pretty much everyone I know has a professional job and I don't think anyone would have been hired without a degree. It's listed as an essential requirement for so many jobs.

This is so depressing, I think you're right. What a mess.

I teach at a mid tier university, that increasingly accepts a lot of students from local comprehensives with A levels at Bs and Cs. Many of them flourish at university, and come to produce work that is easily as good as students at top Russell Groups (I know because I've taught and examined there, too.)

I feel genuinely conflicted about what the value of a degree is. I think education is a good in its own right. Once you have it, no one can take it away from you. You come away with a better sense of the world and your place in it, and how it might be changed for the better. For many of our students, university is transformative - intellectually, socially, in their sense of themselves. That part of university hasn't changed since I attended.

But wages haven't kept pace with debt. That isn't a problem created by universities, but it's one we have to face up to. I can't promise students they will earn so much more over their lifetime than without a degree and they have to make a choice based on that.

What I do know is that a some vocational degrees (business, applied computer science, law, accounting, finance, management) are the ones that aren't translating into jobs, unless they are from very prestigious institutions. Traditional subjects in sciences, social sciences and humanities are doing better because they teach students ways of thinking that are genuinely transferable, rather than equipping them for a specific job that might not exist in five years time. Unfortunately, students from non traditional backgrounds with lower grades often take vocational degrees because they think they're a better pathway to employment. That's often not the case.

This is really the root of the problem. I'm an academic and we are now expected to teach not just transferable skills but things like how to send professional emails, do PPTs, presentations, employers don't want to have to train people anymore.

I'm not saying we shouldn't do these things but it is far more explicit than even 5 years ago that we must do this kind of basic workplace training, not just develop intellectual skills and knowledge.

I think its changing, certainly. However, when one of my DC announced at 18 they were not going to uni the push back from the school was intense. One charming teacher told them they'd look forward to seeing them working in Macdonalds.
My child stuck to their guns, with the support of a mother who has never once needed or used the degree I wasted four years getting, and went down the apprenticeship route. They are now mid 20s, earn more than i do, own their own home and are debt free.

Its a racket. Some of these youngsters can barely string a sentence together yet off they go merrily and accrue 1000s in debt and a pointless degree.
Best go for an apprenticeship ship instead

Yes. I read about some extensive entry level hurdles just to get what used to be eg. interview and job offer (or not).

That's great, well done to your DC! Was it tough to get the apprenticeship?

Totally agree. Those vocational jobs you highlight are among the most vulnerable to AI at entry level.

Uni is to better your education so that you can earn a decent salary in my opinion. If the degree isn’t going to do that then it’s a waste of time. Too many degrees out there that will never lead to a decent salary and end up being wasted. So many younger people go to uni then go off travelling then finally get their first proper job in their late twenties and then lament that they can’t get on the housing ladder.

20 years ago when I was leaving 6th form, our teachers didn’t know what to do with the very small handful of us that didn’t want to go to uni. We had our arms twisted and essentially told we’d amount to nothing.

Nowadays I’d agree that the vast majority of kids shouldn’t be going. The debt nowadays is astronomical, to the point that a lot probably won’t pay it off.

If you know what you want to do and it needs a degree, then crack on, but gone are the days of doing a degree for the ‘experience’

Careers advice in schools needs to be improved though to let kids know the range of jobs out there. I do a job that invariably there’s a 50/50 split of people who know exactly what it is vs the half who had no idea it was even a job!

I hate the way schools push A levels and uni as the only worthwhile route to take and anything else is a failure. It’s all about their stats. Not about the individual.

One of mine went to uni … she hasn’t used her degree to get a job but I do think the whole experience was worthwhile for her. Much more confident and independent.

My other DD didn’t go to uni and now has a fab job with no debt but she was under a lot of pressure at school to go to uni.

I agree mostly. I tried so hard to persuade my YP (nothing wrong with that btw, MN hates the term kids, they weren’t adults etc) to do degree apprenticeships. Even their grammar school encouraged them which is not usually the case. But no they wanted the “experience”. One did want to stay home and go local but just did not like the local Uni and course he’d dreamed of going to so didn’t end up there.
Next year we’ll be funding 2 students living costs - very lucky to have saved for this.

Apprenticeships are either completely basic and a way of paying apprentice wages for low skill work (barista etc) or are hugely competitive (Dyson, rolls Royce, law etc). The mechanism for working you way up in a job has been shredded in many industries. It used to be completely normal for bright children to get a job in eg the civil service or a solicitors firm or a bank at 16 and work your way up - now graduates are scrapping over AA jobs. Apprenticeships that lead to a decent job are overwhelmingly STEM and not everyone wants to do STEM. There are very few high quality jobs for young people or even low quality jobs - university application is comparatively easy. All education is valuable, even if it’s not useful. It’s also perfectly possible to work while you study but the way the system is set up if you work part time as a student then you get part time wages plus student debt and the bank of mum and dad is expected to support you until you are 25. If you work part time or no time as a non student you get UC and the bank of mum and dad aren’t anything to do with you.

I think the easy acceptance of debt is one of the main issues.

My ds is reading engineering. For his target career, he needs his degree & probably a masters as well, there is no other route. But that doesn't necessarily mean £60k debt. He worked for the last year of 6th form as a pool lifeguard and saved £5k. There's another £3k in his CTF. That will cover living expenses this year. He'll work his Christmas holiday. Already has a job for next summer.

He has a budget, cooks for himself so very few takeaways. I've taught him to live cheaply. He doesn't drink alcohol and has a bike rather than a car. He's not interested in clothes/labels. His costs are very low so he hasn't taken a maintenance loan.

I've retired on a small pension but I've saved up ever since I knew he wanted to be an engineer, so I'll start nibbling away at his tuition fees. Between us we'll clear it all within a year or two of him graduating. It is very much a team effort.

He still gets the experience of living independently, fending for himself, friends and connections, research etc.

Just not a three year piss-up which he doesn't want anyway.

Student debt is very different from taking out a personal loan though

Going away to university was the making of my DD. She was very timid and shy but going away and having no choice but to make decisions, budget and push herself out of her comfort zone has changed her immensely. If she had stayed at home she would still be relying on me for a lot of things but now she’s self sufficient.

Who do you think should decide whether university is, or isn't, the right choice if not the young person themselves?

Because we, as a society, have spent the past couple of decades telling them it's the only way to succeed?