Worried about DSs’ obsession with anti feminism

[MyAmusedAquaFinch]

My DSs, 16 and 18, have become massively preoccupied with what they see as the rise of female dominance in society and the decline of men.

They spend quite a lot of time online and seem to have developed a whole worldview around it. They regularly discuss how feminism has gone too far, how men are now treated as second class citizens and how boys are growing up in a society where they are constantly told that something is wrong with them simply because they’re male.

Some of their arguments are things I’ve heard before. They point out that women are encouraged to be independent and ambitious, while traditional masculinity is often portrayed as toxic. They say girls are encouraged to have high standards in relationships, while boys are criticised for having preferences of their own. They think men are increasingly expected to pay for dates, initiate relationships, earn good money and be emotionally available, while women are allowed to opt out of traditional expectations without being judged in the same way.

They say that men are increasingly objectified in films, adverts, and social media, often reduced to muscular bodies, height, jawlines and sexual attractiveness and that women openly discuss male celebrities’ bodies without criticism. They argue that if an advert shows an attractive, muscular man with his shirt off, it’s seen as harmless or empowering for women. But if a man comments on an attractive woman’s body, the conversation can quickly become about misogyny and objectification.

They think that universities and are mostly female and that they don’t like men and the future has no place for them and that women will eventually oppress men.
I’ve tried to explain that women gaining opportunities doesn’t automatically mean men are losing theirs, and that feminism isn’t supposed to mean women dominating men. I’ve also said that some of the things they complain about are real double standards, but that this doesn’t prove women as a group are responsible or that men are being systematically replaced but they say I’m looking at it through a female perspective and that I don’t understand what boys are growing up with now.

But I’m increasingly concerned that they’ve stopped seeing these as individual issues and started interpreting almost everything through a lens of men versus women. I’m worried that this is affecting how they view girls, relationships and women generally as they get older. I’ve noticed this in daily life such as one of them complaining that some girls in his friendship group are dominating the boys instead of putting it simply down to individual personality traits.

Another example is when my nephew, 12, lost his football match against the girls team a month ago, DS (16), tried to encourage him it was because the adults were cheering on the girls and it distracted the boys. Luckily DN didn’t think so and told him it was not the case. DS also tried to encourage DN to be more assertive but again luckily DN thought it was weird. I’m so glad this mentality has not rubbed off on him as I spoke to him about it after and he said he finds it really weird that his cousins are so obsessed with gender wars and he likes girls gaining more opportunities.

I’m very worried about this obsession that they have with being replaced by women and they don’t seem to be able to view anything with any nuance. I’ve tried to talk to them but I don’t know what more I can personally do? I was thinking of getting them to spend more time with DN to hear a healthier boys’ perspective but I don’t think they will hear it, and my ex husband probably won’t talk about topics like this. I’m stumped but it needs nipping in the bud.

Definitely this. Get some facts and links to said facts.

Even the hard facts of how many women are killed by men they know.

I just asked my two sons about this. Only the eldest even had an inkling what I was asking about, and that's only because on some debate day last year someone in the year above gave a humorous speech about it, ending with ridiculing Tate.

So I think I can so far safely say it's not made it to my kid's school/their heads in any significant amount, and the boys there have the confidence to know it's nonsense.

I can only echo, talk to them, respond with facts. Point out that you're the one supporting them, I've discussed child maintenance with mine and how it works (and let them draw their own conclusions on how fair it is). We've spoken about violence and grooming (in the context of keeping them safe from men themselves). You can't shy away from it - you have to talk about it head on and point out the nonsense, without pushing so hard they stop listening (assuming they'll draw their own conclusions eventually)

Imagine outsourcing your parenting shortcomings to a child!

OP, it sounds like this has been a growing worldview for a number of years so it is a bit late to 'nip it in the bud' now. However, it isn't too late to give them exposure to hard facts at every opportunity as @DorsetKnobBiscuit suggests!

do you have a partner?

have you told their dad? This is a serious issue

id be tempted to tell them to both leave and see how far their masculinity gets them in the real world

They need to understand the structure of society and about power - political, financial, physical and social…and who holds it. On an individual level they may feel that life is stacked in favour of women but in reality it isn’t. The girls they know in life are less likely to hold political power, they are likely to earn less, they are more likely to be objectified, experience domestic abuse and raped.

Also refer them to Prevent. Seriously! You need to act

This x100. But males like OPs sons are usually not very high IQ and are incapable of critical thinking.

Yes, but also the personal stories too. Why does OP do most of the looking after them? Does she wash their clothes? What happens in other bits of the family? Is their headteacher male or female? How much does their dad earn compared to mum? Etc.

Men and boys who feel life is stacked in favour of women are using women as the reason for their individual failure in life, real or percieved. They haven't recieved everything they believe themselves entitled to for one reason or another. Disadvantage based in socio economic circumstance, inate disadvantage because they're not physically or socially attractive or academically able, or failure to make the most of what they do have because they prefer to sit in their bedrooms online than get out into the world and get the best deal they can from it, as less fortunate men from previous generations had to.
The key to this imo is not to point out the facts and argue they are wrong. They have hit on a reason for their failure that is comforting and they're not going to drop that easily.
The key is to help them have realistic prospects for their own lives and a plan to work towards achieving them. This is where male role models come in.
We don't need to look hard to see examples of men who are enjoying success and have good relationships with women. Men still dominate the power positions in society and out earn us. They still have relationships with women who love them.
So clearly this isn't a 'problem for men', its a problem with how certain men are managing their own lives and the gap between what they think they deserve and what they can realistically achieve within their personal limitations.

This is extremely worrying and I would not have let it go on for so long.
I would speak to their dad and get him on board. Stress the importance. Arm yourself with facts and statistics about VAWG etc etc and stop them accessing the internet at home.
find some decent male role models/ influencers and really put your foot down but be willing to have open conversations.

Any chance you can direct them towards social media creators whose platforms are ridiculing manospehere? I almost blew my top when I saw a well know redpiller on DS's screen, but he was actually listening to a creator who was ridiculing the 'Alpha King'. That may work better than you just trying to counter the propaganda with facts.

YANBU to be worried - I worry about a lot of the anti-female rhetoric spread online but all you can do is keep challenging those narratives with alternative perspectives. One thing I do agree with and is something my son highlighted after a phse lesson which spoke to the year group specifically about pressures on women, objectifying them etc was that boys go through a similar things but it’s less talked about. It seems normal for teenage boys to be expected to be tall, muscular, strong, no ‘chicken legs’, teased about having skipped leg day, go to the gym etc but not all boys are built that way and there is a pressure amongst peers for boys to bulk & tone in the same way that there is pressure on girls to be traditionally “good looking” with make up etc. Those pressures can be equally harmful. It shouldn’t be men vs women. It should be about realising the issues with society as a whole and looking at how we can celebrate individuality without creating social expectations.

Men and boys who feel life is stacked in favour of women are using women as the reason for their individual failure in life, real or percieved
Oh the irony when this is exactly what many women are doing themselves! Blame all their failures on men.

Oh, absolutely. If my daughter started telling me that all men are inherently inferior, that their only value is their looks and earning potential, they need to know their place and that the secret to happiness is learning how to manipulate and control them, I'd be equally concerned.
Well, maybe not entirely equally, she is still less likely to stab someone because they broke up with her, or be in a 50 girl chat list live-commenting on an assault, but still.

YANBU to be concerned, and it sounds like sadly they've had a lot of unlimited access to the worst of the internet which is done now but I would be clocking this kind of attitude and correcting it every time they spout it. A lot of what you've listed in the OP doesn't make sense or have any relevance to eachother. I'd also be conscious of what dynamic you have at home, do you wait on them or do a lot of tasks for them? What kind of respect do they show when they speak to you? How seriously do they take you?

Also what they have going for them? Because the majority of these manosphere bros sit on their arse a lot and want to blame women for their lack of place in society. Are they working and doing well in school? Do they have ambitions and concrete goals? If not and they're spouting this kind of sexist crap they're old enough to be told plainly to pull their finger out and stop blaming women for their failures or preemptively blaming women for their futures.

You can’t be serious? Surely?
When women go around killing, raping and assaulting at the same rate then this might be a problem to take seriously.