Worried about DSs’ obsession with anti feminism

[MyAmusedAquaFinch]

My DSs, 16 and 18, have become massively preoccupied with what they see as the rise of female dominance in society and the decline of men.

They spend quite a lot of time online and seem to have developed a whole worldview around it. They regularly discuss how feminism has gone too far, how men are now treated as second class citizens and how boys are growing up in a society where they are constantly told that something is wrong with them simply because they’re male.

Some of their arguments are things I’ve heard before. They point out that women are encouraged to be independent and ambitious, while traditional masculinity is often portrayed as toxic. They say girls are encouraged to have high standards in relationships, while boys are criticised for having preferences of their own. They think men are increasingly expected to pay for dates, initiate relationships, earn good money and be emotionally available, while women are allowed to opt out of traditional expectations without being judged in the same way.

They say that men are increasingly objectified in films, adverts, and social media, often reduced to muscular bodies, height, jawlines and sexual attractiveness and that women openly discuss male celebrities’ bodies without criticism. They argue that if an advert shows an attractive, muscular man with his shirt off, it’s seen as harmless or empowering for women. But if a man comments on an attractive woman’s body, the conversation can quickly become about misogyny and objectification.

They think that universities and are mostly female and that they don’t like men and the future has no place for them and that women will eventually oppress men.
I’ve tried to explain that women gaining opportunities doesn’t automatically mean men are losing theirs, and that feminism isn’t supposed to mean women dominating men. I’ve also said that some of the things they complain about are real double standards, but that this doesn’t prove women as a group are responsible or that men are being systematically replaced but they say I’m looking at it through a female perspective and that I don’t understand what boys are growing up with now.

But I’m increasingly concerned that they’ve stopped seeing these as individual issues and started interpreting almost everything through a lens of men versus women. I’m worried that this is affecting how they view girls, relationships and women generally as they get older. I’ve noticed this in daily life such as one of them complaining that some girls in his friendship group are dominating the boys instead of putting it simply down to individual personality traits.

Another example is when my nephew, 12, lost his football match against the girls team a month ago, DS (16), tried to encourage him it was because the adults were cheering on the girls and it distracted the boys. Luckily DN didn’t think so and told him it was not the case. DS also tried to encourage DN to be more assertive but again luckily DN thought it was weird. I’m so glad this mentality has not rubbed off on him as I spoke to him about it after and he said he finds it really weird that his cousins are so obsessed with gender wars and he likes girls gaining more opportunities.

I’m very worried about this obsession that they have with being replaced by women and they don’t seem to be able to view anything with any nuance. I’ve tried to talk to them but I don’t know what more I can personally do? I was thinking of getting them to spend more time with DN to hear a healthier boys’ perspective but I don’t think they will hear it, and my ex husband probably won’t talk about topics like this. I’m stumped but it needs nipping in the bud.

Tell them 3 women are murdered every week in this country by men known to them.

Tell them what life is like for women who live in Afghanistan.

Is it amicable with their dad? Could he talk to them or could it be coming from him?

I think I would consider talking to the school about your worries

They say girls are encouraged to have high standards in relationships, while boys are criticised for having preferences of their own. They think men are increasingly expected to pay for dates, initiate relationships, earn good money and be emotionally available, while women are allowed to opt out of traditional expectations without being judged in the same way.

Why aren't they thinking they will meet these high standards though? The standards are fairly minimal, ie don't rape me, force me to have sex without a condom, cheat or be violent. That isn't the same as "having preferences" which usually means thin, big boobs, open for sex. Can they see one is about being human and kind to each other (which you profess you have taught them) and the other is purely visual, transient and selfish? What are they hearing about picking a girlfriend from their father?

I am unsure where they get the expected to pay for dates and initiate relationships but have either of them ever actually done this? Did they ask you what would be a good way to do so first? If not, did they ask their dad? At that age lavish dates are hardly expected, so what are they quibbling over forking out £20 for a pizza?

Are either of them "earning" let alone "good money" and do they understand the pay differences between men and women over a lifetime, or how men get managerial roles with fewer qualifications? Or that when women have kids their career stalls even if they go straight back to work, whereas men actually get a pay rise when their partner has a kid?

I think the last sentence also says a lot. "Traditional expectations" are basically the archaic on these sites, with some of them going back to Roman Emperor logic because they like that women were kept uneducated at home as a form of slave to their husband.

What do they think they offer in a relationship?

How many threads like this are started by incels in their mum's back bedroom to give them the opportunity to list to an audience of women all the bilge flowing through their mind courtesy of Andrew Tate?

OP is afirst time poster who spent a shit load of time telling us all 'her sons'' shite views.

That is extremely worrying, I think you're right to be concerned! I would definitely try to meet with your ex and discuss a joint approach, and possibly also with their school or college. You are absolutely right not to ignore this.

Certainly for the 16yo I'd be limited the toxic content they have access to.

It sounds like they want a partner who works but doesnt earn more than them, in which case they need to make sure they get high earning jobs as because living costs have gone up.

Its a classic thing of trying to line you up to take care of them in adult life.

With attitudes like theirs they will not attract high earning intelligent women.

They need to talk to their dad for advice.

This is so obviously some poor pathetic bloke posting because he can't get a date.

I'd start by considering what has them so angry at the world that they need to blame women? What are their issues? Are they socially awkward? Struggle to attract friends and girlfriends? Underachieving in education or career, have few prospects? Because while any young man can be radicalised in this way, those who are unhappy and underachieving are far more vulnerable than those who have positive relationships with both sexes and are on track to make a success of their lives.
The next time the rhetoric starts, I'd dig down and personalise it. "So how do you think the things you believe are happening affect your own life?" The answer should give you an idea of why they want to believe this nonsense, and for your 16 year old at least, you could maybe help him sort his life out so he doesn't anymore.

Your sons are a pair of nitwits.

Please sort them out, for their benefit and society’s.

Well you just need to read the responses here to see that very sadly they have a point.

They've been radicalised online. Or perhaps the older one was, and then he dragged his brother into it as well. If it started a few years ago, they may be in quite deep. Maybe refer them to Prevent? Or talk to the safeguarding lead at their school or college?

Whatever you do, please don't let them spend any time with their younger cousin. He needs to be protected.

I'll bite. What point do you think they have, exactly?

If you want to have any chance at solving this, you need to go into any conversation with them understanding and accepting 3 things:

1 - Them doing this is completely understandable and natural (not right, but natural). They are boys without a father figure in their life for 6/7 days of the week, and they have unfortunately found a replacement in the male influencers online. That is a shame, as most of them are just out to make money, but they target boys exactly like your sons who are (whether they realize it or not) seeking a guide on how to be a man, in a world where they are lacking people to give them that advice.

That is important to recognize, so that you don't shame them or judge them for finding comfort/purpose in this. Of course a young teenager is going to find comfort in being told what it means to be a man, if they don't have any man in real life telling them/showing them it.

2 - They aren't 100% wrong about everything. Don't fall into the trap of black and white thinking over this, because you will loose your credibility and fail to persuade them of anything. the MRAs (men's rights activist as they used to be called, before it changed to the manosphere etc.) like any other group are not wrong about 100% of things, 100% of the time. Just like any political party or any activist group, it is entirely blind to think that any cause has no truth in it at all.

If you go in with this idea, then you will be able to challenge them on the parts of the ideology that are wrong, without them instantly discrediting you as being "against them" etc.

E.g. you go in accepting that yes, there are some areas of society and some aspects of how we live that disadvantage men... that is obviously and objectively true... but... _ and then you explain the counter points that show the experience women have in society etc.

If you go into it disagreeing with all of it, you will loose any credibility in their eyes, because to them it will seem like you are denying obvious truths, of which their argument does have some (not many, but some).

3 - Acknowledge that their world isn't yours. Times have changed radically in the past half a century and their experience of sex and gender likely isn't the same as yours. The biases and sexism you experienced growing up, is likely not how their classrooms/social circles are operating today.

For example

In the last 30 years the gap in educational achievement has completely flipped, from boys outperforming girls, to the other way around.

Now, (unlike before) under the age of 35 (i.e. before childbirth) women actually earn on average more than men.

Men used to dominate the media, now it is much more fairly split.

etc.

So be careful with presuming their world is the same as yours was growing up - because it really isn't.

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If you do those, and go into it in a fair manner, you've got a great chance at being able to reason with them, and if they are clever boys they will be able to look back in a few years and realize how silly they were, and that while there were some areas of truth, a lot of what the influencers extrapolated from that truth was just their to make them angry and get them to watch/pay more.

I don’t understand why you keep trying to put this topic in a ‘political’ box: it’s far bigger than that. Respecting women as equals isn’t politics!

you haven’t answered the question about positive male role models: do they have any? men who show by their actions that they are respectful of and not threatened by women’s achievements? Would you describe your ex this way? Does he pull them up every time they say this stupid shit?

i have two boys, 16 and 18, and I can see this worldview being presented to them online. I have countered it by ensuring that DH and I are equals, that we work as a team, that we respect each other. DH vocally rejects the whole macho manosphere bollocks - while also talking to them about working out, going to the gym, relationships.

Like most of these controversies, there’s a grain of truth in it. Life has changed for men, partly a result of gender equality. The world of work has changed, and many sectors have become very female dominated. Education, in the way we organise it, doesn’t work more often for boys. Read Of Boys and Men by Richard Reeves - he’s an academic and writer who researched this area and has several suggestions on how to counter the manosphere views.

I wish I had good answers OP but a lot of teen boys are being groomed in to these beliefs.

There are a few things you could ask them about, maybe the US presidential elections

Trump v Hillary
Trump v Biden
Trump v Kamala

Why were the women referred to by their first names? Did that affect how they were seen in the election? It used to be that in workplaces managers were called by their surname and those being managed by their first name.

That happens in schools, teachers are called by their surnames and pupils by their given names.

Schools again, male teachers are often referred to as 'Sir' but female teachers are 'Miss' when the equivalent for a women is madam or ma'am. How do they account for that in their world view?

If you watch 'the great British menu' you can often see the female chefs have to work harder just to move things because the kitchens are designed for men.

There are quite a few very successful (Michelin stared) female chefs so why are they still having to work in an environment built for men?

Back to schools, this is actually taught to student teachers, girls are seated next to disruptive boys. Boys just have to do the work, the girls have to do the work, sitting next to a dick and be responsible for behaviour.

BTW the first thing I do if I'm teaching computer science is put the girls together..

this is very worrying, they have clearly been drawn into the Manosphere content, and it will get only worse. It starts with advice how to be better, then with small injustices, blaming women for your struggles but soon they will become desensitized and it will get a lot worse. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC12630993/

https://www.rte.ie/news/primetime/2025/0523/1514406-drawn-in-by-the-algorithm-four-irish-men-share-their-stories/

You urgently need to figure out how to help them out of this. The most promising approach is to understand what attracted them in the first place, challenge the ideas without humiliating them, and offer something better to belong to. Here is a page to start with: https://www.whiteribbon.ca/raisingboys-manosphere-guide?lng=en

They sound revolting, and any women they encounter in the future will think so too.

I would stop doing everything for them, no washing or cooking, lifts or money.

Let them manage themselves instead of relying on a female to do it for them.

Nasty little incels.

I was thinking of getting them to spend more time with DN to hear a healthier boys’ perspective

Your 12 year old nephew? He’s not going to influence the attitudes of a 16 & 18 year old. And if I was the nephew’s parent, I’d want him spending far less time with your sons.

I really struggle with these threads because the truth is that almost all men - I’d go so far to say all men, deep down - believe they are superior to women. This is taught to them all day every day passively just by living in our society.

Obviously some are very aware of this and are very coded and careful but deep down they still think their experience of the world is superior. Look how so few right on men turn up to actually do the care work for their ageing parents. They think it’s below them. Because it’s feminised.

Inrealise that as a mother of daughters this is easier to say and that and if I had sons too I would probably end up believing they were different. But it is not your failure that they are not. Why is it your job as a woman to reprogramme that?

Men will never ever be our advocates unfortunately. All that can be done is to keep fighting for structural change.

But this is also not a bad idea

This.

Every time they give an example of the unfairness of it all, call them out. Check the facts and prove them wrong.

How does life work in your household? Who does the chores? They should each be doing their fair share, they are old enough.

I think I'd start by getting them each to cook supper regularly. My ds came out with a lot of sexist resentful nonsense when he was 16 and it was really him expressing desperation that he didn't think he could cope with his rapidly approaching adulthood.

By showing him that he could cook for himself, that he could sort things like bank accounts and having a job, it reassured him, gave him confidence and more faith in himself. He's a completely different young man now.

Do either of them have a job, out in the real world and away from the internet rubbish, where they have to deal with real people?

You could try telling them that whatever men do, say or think, it's always their mother's fault so that's one advantage men have over women. At least that's what some of these comments on this thread seem to indicate. 🙄

If this started two years ago and they have been on the Internet feeding their views then you are a bit late for "nipping this in the bud" now that they are 16 and 18.

When you are used to privilege, equality feels like oppression”. Sorry can’t remember who said this but I think the basic concept is the basis of the manosphere beliefs.

Id remind them of this quote and also expect that if they want to share their views with you, that you share yours with them. Then get some stats together and respond.

I’m a woman in my 50s and I absolutely agree with your sons. Theirs will be the predominant world view in time. Try listening to some female commentators around the topic maybe - any podcast featuring the impressive, young and eloquent Louise Perry is a good start.