To question whether northerners are actually poorer than southerners ?

[Naegriafowlia]

As we know a lot of northerners seem to think all southerners are living like the Russian Romanov family pre murder and funds from the south should be directed up north because they are apparently so much poorer than us.

But is this even true? If you can buy a family home up there for 100k or less and the same size home costs 300-400k on average in the south. You already have a lot more disposable income. I know they say they get paid less, but Tesco (for example) pays the same every where and has branches everywhere. I know they also say there’s no good jobs there but where there’s people there’s schools and hospitals so you want us to believe there’s no teachers and doctors?

I know someone will say “move there then” personally I won’t be moving anywhere anytime soon as I started my family young (first born a few months after GCSEs) and my kids are all really settled in school and with friends.
Based on what I’ve heard from northerners they are more welcoming to people from countries on the other side of the planet than they are their fellow countrymen from 100 miles to the south.

If you have one of the major world cities in your country, living further away from it will be a different experience to living nearer. Both have pros and cons. London and commuter towns are full of people from all over the UK and people from all over the world. They are there because of London and a lot of them don't see themselves as southerners, just people who are currently living in London or the South East. Many have dreams of living somewhere less populated, with cheaper housing and nearer their family.

Andy Burnham seems to be trying to attract the more tribal vote in the North, with his North/South narrative. If I was Northern, I would be feeling very cynical, if I was from the South West I would find it a bit frustrating and as someone who migrated to London I feel he is working against me.

OP , I meant "one" rather than actually "you"...

If you rented a house here (South Manchester) you would be paying very similar prices. This is the very cheapest rental in Chorlton which is an OK bit of Manchester, but this particular flat is on a rough estate with high levels of deprivation and social issues

https://www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/93918180?utm_campaign=property-details&utm_content=lettings&utm_medium=sharing&utm_source=copytoclipboard#/&channel=RES_LET

The cheapest 3 bed rental not on that estate is 1800 a month

www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/93664770?utm_campaign=property-details&utm_content=lettings&utm_medium=sharing&utm_source=copytoclipboard#/&channel=RES_LET

As a Southerner who moved North myself I would be a bit hypocritical to complain about others doing so. I observed that when the BBC moved operations North it involved a lot of staff moving and house prices rose substantially. That's an observation. I don't resent the BBC moving North at all, they brought jobs and prestige.

I think for your next holiday you might want to book a week up North somewhere. Come and see how people who work in a shop live, look at local opportunities, infrastructure, health stats, and education outcomes, and then decide if it's that much better than what you have now.

As I said those prices were me comparing medium sized town with medium sized town, you can compare Manchester with London prices.

I’ve been to lots of places up north and really didn’t think it was as bad as you’re making out

And as I said I won’t be moving on account of having kids when I was very young and they’re very settled here. But this isn’t about me if every southerner moved north guarantee you would be complaining

And what do you mean “come see how people working in a shop live” my colleague had a knife held to her throat at work. Do you think there’s no problems in the south?

Funny how there’s northerners complaining that southerners see the north as a hellscape and wasteland but I’ve only ever seen professional northerners push that idea to elicit sympathy and more money out the south

https://www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/92069994#/?channel=RES_BUY

I’m a Southerner who has lived in the North for coming up to 38 years.We would have earned the same North or South as both of us worked in higher education.

Huge parts of the area I live in are deprived, the pits shutting and also the mills, it’s never truly recovered. But the last house to sell on my road was a four bed that sold for 650k about a year ago. Unsure of what my 3 bed semi is worth but last one to sell was my friend and neighbour and it went for well over 300k.

The North is poorer overall but go to Harrogate and Huddersfield, the difference is huge, same house would be 100k less in Huddersfield than Harrogate,

Pockets of prosperity and deprivation are everywhere, then there is how data is sorted, it is often presented to fit the narrative. Lies dammed lies and statistics, never were truer words spoken. If you are presenting stats to people that do not fully understand the subject matter they are very easy to manipulate.

@Keepoffmyartichokes I also can’t get my head round anyone thinking South Yorkshire as being classed as the Midlands. Imagine voicing that in a pub in Doncaster. The Dorling study has the North South divide along a diagonal line. many Midlands folk would not like it though.

'And what do you mean “come see how people working in a shop live”'

I meant, come and see what sort of homes they can afford, what sort of holidays they take, that sort of thing.

And my personal experience as a born Southerner living in the South East as a child and teen (admittedly during a time of great upheaval in the North, during Thatcher years) is that there very much was such a narrative about the North, and that the few people with Yorkshire or Lancashire accents had the mick taken daily.

My son has had a similar experience in attending a uni in the South. Daily experiences of imitating his accent. All meant in fun but it wears thin.

I get it up here on occasion - "What's a B-ar-th? Do you mean B-a-th?"

Please stop feeling hard done to, living in a wealthier part of the country with better health and educational outcomes, more opportunities and better infrastructure isn't all bad.

I agree a higher standard of living is possible in the north.
I work for the NHS in one of the most deprived cities in the north of England. My b7 salary is the same as I would earn in the South but goes much further.
i can afford a nice house in a leafy village just 10 miles from my work. Lower commuting costs and a decent quality of life.
A b7 NHS salary won’t stretch nearly as far in an area with higher housing costs.

Sadly due to a bad reputation of the nearest city and geography people are reluctant to make the move and see what the area has to offer, which means we can struggle to fill posts.

I mean I live in a tiny flat and haven’t been on holiday in years so this one isn’t going to wash with me 😂😂

Another one who thinks every southerner is Jacob Rees mogg. And like no northerner ever made fun of a southerner accent (usually while assuming we all speak like Jacob rm)

I spent 12 months living "north of Watford Gap".

In that time, despite having 20 years experience in my field, a relevant degree, multiple professional qualifications and a successful track record, I didn't get a single 2nd interview.

I gave up, applied back in the Thames Valley, and got two 2nd interviews and a good job offer in the first month.

OP, it wasn't only the lack of a decent job, there was more blatant sexism, it was depressing. It felt hopeless. Wealth can be measured in a lot of ways not just in pounds & pence.

Oh give over. I am a Southerner born. I have lived North for 35 years and still have family in the South East. I am perfectly well aware of what life is like there and how people speak.

You are just coming across as a bit unhinged now, tbh.

I wanted to hear you explain the difference between the house a shop worker could afford in the north vs south. They get the same wage up there but houses are cheaper so why are you acting like it’s a wasteland where everyone lives on a hovel?

Not sure what part of that comment was unhinged? The Jacob Rees mogg part?

I am not acting like it's a wasteland. Your premise in this thread is that Northerners are not poorer than Southerners because housing is cheaper. You are correct that housing is cheaper, though not as much as you believe.

In individual cases you are correct that a Tesco worker may well be able to afford a slightly better house in the North.

However your premise that the North is not poorer is wrong. Jobs and opportunities are focused in the South East. Foreign investment is focused in the South East. Educational and health outcomes are better in the South East. This is at a population level.

So yes, you personally might get a better flat or a house on your wage. But if your kids graduate and want to work in a profession, it will be much harder for them to stay in their local area. Many, many graduates have to go to London or home counties for work. All that Burnham is doing is saying it would be better for everyone, including non-professional Londoners who are being priced out of their home areas, if opportunity and foreign investment were spread more evenly around the country. And it would.

And yes, accusing a person born and raised in the South of thinking every Southerner speaks like Rees Mogg was a bit silly, wasn't it.

Of course we don’t assume every southerner talks like JRM! You seem believe we are all idiots. Your anti-northern disdain is quite something! Do you think we’ve never left the north? We’re all too stupid and provincial to have ever travelled?

DH has a southern accent and mine is northern. Yes, we tease each other’s accents. It’s lighthearted, gentle and non-offensive. We would never dream of mocking anybody else’s accent though. But what we wouldn’t dream of doing is to make galloping assumptions about person’s work or rent payments based on their location. You’re obsessed with cheap rents in deprived towns and believe that all northerners pay cheap rents or bought a house for £100K. It is quite insulting.

Let’s look at private education. 7% of northern kids versus 15% of southern kids are privately educated - over double the proportion. If northerners were all so stinking rich wouldn’t that figure be reversed? Or maybe we just care more about our pigeons and whippets than we do our children?

I think one of the big changes is the portability of many senior jobs due to vastly improved technology.

The team of 12 I work with all earn decent 6 figure salaries and used to be based in or around London with office attendance almost mandatory.

Fast forward a few years and we all work nearly 100% remotely. Only 1 person lives anywhere near London. Most live in rural/semi rural areas in the Midlands and North. All still receive the same salaries.

The standard of living for us all has gone through the roof.

I grew up in the south east then used to live in London age 19 to 44. I then moved to the east midlands to buy a mortgage free property and agree there is slightly more sexism. However as to whether the north or the south is richer totally depends on who you know where you live and the occupations you are in. It isn't really down to the north south divide these days.

How are the “assumptions” wrong? My workplace has branches up and down the country and my role is paid the same in the north. Then rent is double or triple depending where you are in the south.

Its not an assumption if its right.

15% going to private school has surprised me I’ve never met anyone who went to private school (although of course I may have without realising)
I don’t see how it’s relevant though 15% is still a minority. And they are probably concentrated in the wealthy parts of London.

I should of said they can buy a 3 bed house for between 100-200k not said 100k. My bad. Still a bargain.

For sale by aucytion so likely to go for more and I thinks only cash buyers can buy at auction.

The house needs everything doing to it. New electrics, kitchen bathroom, carpets - everything is very dated.
The same model house in the same street sold for 180,000 last year.

Maybe by buying at auction and doing all the work yourself the total may come in under that, but you'd either have to live on a building site or rent elsewhere for a while.

A house like that going for 180k is still a bargain though. Wouldn’t see that down here and I live in one of the cheapest parts of the South

Can you not see that "The Northerner" does not exist? Nor, for that matter, does "The Southerner". I live in the north of the country now but was born in the south west and have spent most of my life living nowhere further north than the Midlands, until now. Likewise, my husband was born and raised far north of the halfway line but has spent most of his adult life south of it. People move about.
The North is a huge and varied place. It has its own distinct divisions north and south as well as eat and west. Also, e.g., living in Cheshire (and particularly some parts within it) is a whole different thing to living in Manchester (and particularly some parts within it) even though they are adjoined.
My point is The "professional Northerner" who has somehow offended you is one person, an individual, clearly as narrow minded as you are. Do you think of yourself as a "professional Southerner"? It's what you seem to be presenting yourself as.
Everyone, everywhere, throughout the country, is concerned about the hugely unfair distribution of assets and provision, as they should be, wherever they live, but those of us who live outside the south east are more vocal about it because it affects us in a detremental way, personally.

We live in a beautiful part of the north. We have 5 fabulous beaches within 5-20 mins drive, can easily get into the countryside. It wouldn't be such a nice place without a car.

When the children were smaller, I really felt the lack of infrastructure in terms of baby groups, local parks etc, lack of public transport etc. I don't know if that has changed. Our children will probably need to move away if they want a career, as did the majority of my school and college friends.
I love it though but also wouldn't rule out moving away as we get older for somewhere with more public infrastructure.

As you said, you're making a choice to stay because your children are happy and settled. We are also making a choice to stay in our particular part of the north. Both have their pros and cons. Swings and roundabouts, except our are generally damaged and missing.

I understand what you're saying in that there's no uplift in wages for an average job that accounts for high property prices. Minimum wage is still the same.

The professional northerner is not everyone who lives or has lived in the north. Obviously. It’s a type that goes on about rich southerners stealing all the money, claims the north is a terrible place and the reason he’s “hard as nails” and wants money redistributed from people in the south to the north.

If you’ve never met or interacted with this archetype then good for you. Me making a thread about it does not mean I’m a professional southerner haha.

The issue has become more pressing because we have so many professional northerners in the government now. Someone made a good point that remote working and internet means people with very high paying jobs can live wherever they want now. There’s going to be a lot of very highly paid people sitting working from home in their northern 6 bedroom house now and we’re supposed to feel like Jacob Rees Mogg because we live in the south even though loads of southerners earn less than 13 an hour

I think was very true several years ago - DH and I were public sector workers (teacher and social worker) in Manchester and got on the housing ladder pretty easily BUT it was at the start of gentrification of the Manchester suburbs. Now, there's barely anywhere left for gentrification and the bad areas are really bad. It was much more mixed when we originally moved, but as gentrification happened the bad areas got more concentrated.

It's now almost impossible for a public sector workers like we were to get on the property ladder given the price hikes - you couldn't buy our first home on 2nd year PS salaries now, like we did. And rent is now hideous. When we left uni, rent was about £550 for a small 2 bed flat, it's now over double that and then some, yet salaries are only a few thousand more. So no hope of saving for a deposit.

Manchester is also one of the only northern places that has a reasonable concentration of jobs! It's fast becoming a mini London though and pricing out "ordinary" people.

You’re still at it! A three bed is £500K in my (northern) area. You refuse to accept that ALL northerners don’t live in cheap houses in run down areas.

Your argument seems to be “But you could buy a house for £200K if you moved to a cheap area”. So could you if you moved to Torbay or Jaywick! But you wouldn’t want to live there, just as most of us don’t want to move to Bradford or County Durham.