How can I support DD11 to prepare for music exam when any feedback is seen as an attack?

[seriouslynonames]

Dd11 is keen to do a grade 1 music exam and is quite able when performing the pieces. She is much less able at practicing!
She has to learn the pieces by heart and sometimes gets a bit wrong or misses out a bar or two of rest etc. If I flag any of the the errors, even in the most gentle way, she absolutely cannot cope with the feedback. I have tried reframing and even better if etc but sometimes she just needs to stop, go back a few bars and go over that part until she gets it right instead of continually doing it wrong.

She has ADHD, she also has quite strong PDA tendencies though has not been assessed for ASD so I am not surprised how she reacts and we gave up on piano lessons as it was such a struggle.

I have tried to ask her, gently, how does she feel when I correct her (e.g. stupid? Ashamed? Frustrated? Angry at me?) to see if I can find a better way of flagging the things she needs to work on without sounding like it's criticism.
But she can't articulate how it makes her feel (other than rage which is what I see).

The 30 min a week lesson isn't enough to get through everything, she is expected to practice but she won't do so unless someone sits with her, like a body double. So I can't just leave her to it and expect her to learn from the experience if/when she doesn't perform well in the exam because her brain doesn't work in a way that would allow her to learn from that (yet).

So I have to find another way of getting her to practice and spot the tricky bits and work on them.

Has anyone found a way of helping their young person practice and improve and not see mistakes as the enemy and not expect perfection etc?
Thank you!

Don't interfere. It's her exam, her practice, her control. I got Grade 8 without any comment from my parents except "sounds lovely" and "that is much better than last week".

Yep, I agree - stay out of it and if she fails, she’ll realise she has to think about practicing. Same happened with my DS who was really disappointed with just scraping a pass at grade one and pulled his finger out after that (also AuDHD).

4 children here who did all the grading.
As above.
You are on a hiding to nothing.
Let her at it.
You pay the teacher to give her feedback.
If she fails, she fails.

Give it some serious thought if you want to put yourself through the years of stress involved.

My Mum constantly pointing errors whenever I sat down to practice the piano meant that I stopped practicing.

I could hear the error myself, I didn’t need it pointed out, I needed left alone to work on it, something I could never, never make her understand.

Could you make a deal with your DD that she practices every day but that you won’t correct her?

As the others do, I stay out of it. I remind her to practice but I don't hound her to practice. I told her I was not willing to turn it into a fight. She asked to learn.

Have you asked your DD how she wants you to help her? Does she even want your help or does she want to do it on her own? She's 11 and old enough to take some responsibility by herself. DD occasionally asks me to record her, would that be an option?

What if you just sit with her and read a book whilst she plays if she just wants company?

My mum would constantly point out errors when i practiced the piano so i gave up. I knew that i was making an error and i never got a well done when i mastered my errors. You could encourage your daughter to practice and read a book while she is practicing.

I used to play the flute, my mum used to say positive things and that was that . Like pps said she knows when she’s made a mistake she most definitely doesn’t need you telling her !! If shes wants you to be with her just do that if you’re happy to but no more, certainly no feedback! Do you play the instrument shes learning? Let her crack on.

Which exam board is it? You don't generally have to perform from memory unless it's a singing exam.

But as PPs have said, I'd leave corrections and criticisms to the teacher.

(Also, as no-one on the thread has managed to spell this correctly so far, it's "practising" and "practised". "Practice" as a noun is correct.)

Thanks for all the replies.
Unfortunately I know her well enough to know that if I leave her to it she will not practice at all.
She was very keen to learn piano. We paid for at least 2 years of lessons. Zero practice. Zero progress. Utter waste of money. She did not learn from this. She didn't attempt any exams as the teacher didn't think she was ready (she was not). She complained every week about going. She moaned that the teacher reminded her to practice. She refused to practice. If she did ever decide to practice she insisted I sit with her. But then complained if I spoke.

Yes I see your point that she knows she has made the error and I can understand that this made things really miserable for those who have mentioned it.

However when she makes an error she doesn't then stop to go over that, she continues to make the same error then she gets the wrong thing stuck in her head and can't correct it.

If I just leave her to it I get the teacher telling me what she needs to do at home but she then won't do it so the teacher gets frustrated.

If I leave her to it and she fails the exam or only just scrapes a pass she will declare that she is stupid, the worst in the world, a complete failure and will then not try anything else for fear of failing.

So I appreciate all the advice which is largely telling me the same thing, to leave her to it, but that's not going to lead to anything positive in my experience.

My other DD I can just nag her to do her practice but let her get on with it as I hear her stop, self correct and practice bits here and there. So it's not that I don't believe that it can work that way, it just won't work with this child.
I don't want to stop her lessons as this is something she is passionate about doing, she just doesn't seem to believe in the idea that practice helps you improve. She thinks she could make this into a career but doesn't see that others who have done so have worked damn hard to get there.

Maybe it will come with maturity (she is not a mature 11 year old, just 11, still in primary and still quite young).
Thanks anyway!

And just to add, with piano she also refused to give up lessons! She wants to do this stuff, she just can't make herself do what's required...

And yes sorry I expect I have used the wrong spelling!

And yes it is singing so it is to be learned by heart. She's not one for accuracy, more one for getting things in the general direction of right (in everything including maths for example), and not really understanding that yes it was only a small error but it means the answer is still wrong.

Anyway, I see I am on a hiding to nothing so I don't know what I will do next!

But if you didn't know anything about music you wouldn't be ABLE to correct her, would you? So how keen is she really to do the exam and how much is she using it (and you 'having' to body double her) to get your attention fully focussed on her?

Can you pull back on the critiques and sit back and let her fail? She'll probably be so angry with herself that she'll give up lessons at that point anyway.

I feel for you OP, I spent 17 years with 4 children completing all the grading, years and money I will never get back.
They all play beautifully, but don't play.
Who knows if they ever will.
Would I do it all again?
Absolutely not.
The cost stress wise was far too much.

The clever parents refused the stress and stopped it.

Our piano teacher was a master.
In 40 years of teaching she told me she could fill one hand in students that did the first 5 years of practice unprompted.

In my experience with my children it was more like the first 7-8 years that required prompting.
Awful.

Yes if I didn't know anything about music there would be a limit to what I could say or do to help her.
I would still be able to point out that she is singing the wrong words though, which is mostly what I am doing. She doesn't always realise she is making that mistake.

It's not so much about getting my attention, more that she doesn't want to be in a room on her own and doesn't want to be doing something that feels like 'work'.

She probably would be angry and might well give up lessons. We eventually set a gentle ultimatum with piano and she chose to give up rather than commit to practicing even once a week. With singing she will keep singing as she uses singing to self regulate, even if she gives up lessons. but she will get frustrated that friends are making progress in their chosen hobbies and she is not. Unfortunately she won't then think oh well if I want to get better I need to practice.
So letting her fail and give up won't benefit anyone. Some kids need extra support, she is one of them, but I haven't found the right way to do that (and clearly I am doing it the wrong way, so I do take that on board)
Thanks

I have to sit with my 11yo for practice to happen but they are playing at an advanced level despite complex needs - in a special school - and this could easily be a career for them in a world that will offer them very limited career options. And they want me to sit with them. If purely recreational I probably would be less involved. But I certainly don’t sit and point out every mistake - just ask for these pieces, those scales, etc. just helping them actually knuckle down and do the practice. Most of the critiquing is left to the teachers.

I’m a music teacher, though not voice, so my students aren’t required to learn pieces from memory. I’m just thinking out loud here, so all of these may be terrible ideas, but just a few suggestions: does she have any strategies for dealing with the bits that she finds difficult/tends to get wrong? Does she even know where those places are? So for example, in the rests, could she learn that she needs to count ‘1 2 3 4, 2 2 3 4’ in her head before she starts singing again? Could she plan and agree some of these strategies with her teacher?

Would she be open to recording herself to listen back to and notice her own errors? This may make things ten times worse though, if she struggles with making mistakes, but I mention it in case you think it will be helpful. All musicians do need to be able to listen to themselves critically in order to improve, but that may not be appropriate at her age and with her ADHD and PDA.

Would she find it helpful to listen to a recording of the pieces, if she doesn’t already? I wonder if listening to them frequently might help with the memorisation process.

If she doesn’t already, would it help to agree specific goals with her teacher each week, e.g. memorise bars 1-16 of song A this week, and tackle the next section next week?

Get her to record herself and play it back?

Get her to sing along with someone else singing it so blatant when she gets it wrong.

My daughter did up to grade 8 in singing and recorded herself (mostly because I haven’t got a musical bone in my body to hear where it’s gone wrong). Do you think she would try it? Most of DD’s practise seemed to happen in the shower whilst listening to herself.

Would she be able to tell you what she finds helpful herself?

Thanks @Rosepinks

I wouldn't bother if she wasn't so good at singing! But I think we will try this first exam and if it's a disaster then we will just have to continue lessons without exams. But if she does want to go further with it she will at some point need the exams! She will also see others passing exams and progressing, she has already noticed friends who play piano having progressed way further than she ever did in a short time and it does not help her self esteem (and she does not understand yet that comparison is the thief of joy!)

I know a child like this and it's so frustrating - you want to be able to help them but they seem unable to accept it. They cannot take any feedback without exploding with rage. What about some therapy for your DD to teach her strategies to manage her emotions. Or get an older music student to sit with her to do her practice. I suppose she only behaves like this with her own parents. Or tell her outside her practice times what she needs to do when she makes a mistake (e.g. don't carry on but stop and practise the difficult section 5-10 times; or whatever). Or, if she does practise, acknowledge it: 'You went back over that and it sounded better the 3rd time'.

My dd is similar - she has just done her G8 piano so you can definitely pass (and do very well) without feedback from parents. I’m a musician, she just doesn’t want to hear it from me.

Well she's not going to make a career of it without ever doing any practice!

Anyway, she can do some of her practice with the music even if it has to be performed from memory in the exam.

There are recordings of the accompaniment to most ABRSM songs on YouTube, and also an ABRSM app where you can access many of the songs (though you have to pay for them).

Maybe get her the accompaniments then leave her to it? Ask her to choose a song to work on first

Thanks all for your replies, it's good to hear something other than 'leave her to it'!!

Thanks @TurquoiseSloth yes I think she needs someone with her just to get any practice done. I don't point out all the little mistakes, just tell her when she has moved onto the wrong verse or something significant. I am not a musician, though I played a few instruments as a child and can read music. But I am not qualified in any way to coach her especially on vocals. The teacher tells her what she needs to work on but she doesn't do it, just does want she wants to. So if anything I am reminding her what she has been told by the expert. I hope your child continues to thrive with their music, hopefully mine will get there one day!

Thanks @busybanana I will see if she is open to recording herself as you suggest, and as others have also suggested. This could be helpful if she can refrain from being overly self critical!

Thanks @Cantstopeatingjaffacakes she can't tell me what she would find helpful yet... I am gathering from her words and actions that being the perfect audience and giving her massive praise is probably the only role she will appreciate 😆😬

Thanks @Mandarinaduck some helpful ideas

I wonder if she is just a bit young really. My son has asd with demand avoidance and suspected adhd. He plays a couple of instruments well but not at 11.

He didnt have the emotional regulation or the ability to act on feedback then. He started at 14/15.

My only suggestions would be around presenting thing less directly so instead of saying you missed out these rests, more that was great shall we try it a few other ways like slowly, fast, counting. More like jamming? . Nothing was wrong your just trying different ways of doing it. Starting a different sections. Be a bit silly with it. Can it be more spontaneous too, if its voice I assume you can do bits anywhere in the house?

My son definitely records himself and plays it back which he liked.

He also accepts text over verbal feedback. His teacher whatapps 'today we played x and had a chat about how different pieces have different time signatures i wonder what timings are used in x piece?' or similar. Its very neutrally phrased.