AIBU to feel at my wits' end with my five-year-old on holiday?

[Bratmum]

That’s it really. I’m on another holiday, booked and arranged so that it’s absolutely perfect for my 5 year old and she’s being a selfish brat. She’s shouting, whinging, won’t share with her sibling, everything is answered back to, things thrown, tantrums, kicking things. We discipline her. She has treats withheld, she’s been told she isn’t going swimming today, she’s been shouted at. We’ve calming explained how this behaviour is unacceptable, she’s been sent to her room. Anything else recommended? Before anyone asks if she’s ND, probably. Me and her father are both diagnosed with ADHD. as sure, we go to great lengths to make sure that she has lots of exercise, a good diet and lots of sleep. We make sure plans aren’t overwhelming and give her lots of notice of transitions. I understand how difficult adhd can make life but I won’t accept bad behaviour going unchecked. Any suggestions much appreciated.

Are you abroad, sorry if I missed that part. My son at 5 couldn't cope with the heat, really struggled with his behavior and moods. He has many AdHd traits but is not diagnosed - his choice he's 17 now. Just an idea that the heat could have triggered this spiraling behavior

If being shouted at, sent away, losing your stuff and missing out on fun has ever calmed you down and made you a joy to be around then crack on.

My child is younger but I do always write off the first day of holiday as a hard day. The tiredness and excitement of the journey, the change in routine, and the fact they really don't have the experience to imagine what the holiday is actually going to be like will combine to knock them off kilter. The first day is for finding your feet, ignoring any behaviour that can be safely ignored, and keeping expectations on the floor.

Stop thinking of her as a 'selfish brat' and you'll stop reacting so negatively to her overwhelm. She's not enjoying feeling the way she feels and you're really not helping her recover.

Calm it all down, treat her as a struggling child not a naughty child. Keep all the treats and special things in place. Give her lots of advance explanations of what is happening, like PP have suggested. Give her some power over he day so she doesn't seek it in unhelpful ways.

I agree. Never understand why people take small children on hot, overstimulating holidays in locations they can’t possibly appreciate and then wonder why they kick off and don’t behave.

Your sanctions / punishments aren’t working.. all they are doing is making you more frustrated.

My ASD DD did not respond to any of your usual punishments, such as removal of screens or taking WiFi away, because she was unable to manage her emotions. If someone is overwhelmed / having a panic attack / meltdown, whatever langague you use, they do not have the ability to make an active choice of “I won’t do it, or my swimming will be taken away” . You are punishing an uncontrollable response.

That said .. how to manage it .. give them more ownership of how they spend thier time, build in some quite time, give them an exit strategy in case things are getting too much and they want to leave, slow things down, and listen to what they have to say.

They aren’t behaving like this to annoy you, they are behaving like this because they aren’t able to express themselves any other way.

Try to keep things as similar to home but in a different place. E.g. morning and meal routines etc.

Do a daily planner.

Most importantly choose an approach and stick to it. You, and her families response to her are the most important thing to establish consistency. She is experiencing a complete loss of usual structure and routine, and looking to you to create boundaries, safety and consistency.

I travel with a significantly ND child, so I understand how challenging it can be. He is now 8, so has quite a few years experience of travel and it's definitely much easier now. We often go in a campervan so that's always the same, the difference is where the campervan is. He now really enjoys road tripping and we go to loads of new and exciting places. Being outdoors in a big space and being active all day really helps.

This is pretty much what I was going to say.

OP is making a frustrating situation worse.

What kind of holiday are you on? Are you somewhere abroad where it’s hot and completely different?

When ours were little we tended to do things like Butlins and Caravans where we could just go back to the caravan and chill when needed, or plan outside. Then add whatever activities are fun.

If she is adhd she'll be dopamine hunting, I see this in my own dd. Focus on reward and goals/targets that activate all the dopamine when she achieves them instead of "don'ts" and punishments. If she can't get any of those hits from positive behaviour, that's when they hunt for it through any mechanism possible (getting cross, arguing, meltdowns, whining etc). Also work on some emotional regulation techniques (my dd calms down really fast if I ask her to tell me all the blue things she can see, or you can try finger breathing together, or counting 5 things she can see, 4 she can hear, 3 she can smell etc). When she's finding things stressful, stay calm, pick a technique and work through it with her. If you shout/get cross/react she gets a big old hit of dopamine, and she's learnt a pattern of "if I do this, I get very loud attention back".

Think of some super specific, easy to understand goals for her and attach a small reward (even a sticker is enough for my dd). It focuses her brain on doing something active. As soon as you go "don't fight with your sibling" the drive to fight is overwhelming. If you swap that out with "if you can xyz in 5 minutes then you'll win xyz" you drive a totally different behaviour - gamify being well behaved. With my dd, she has to be very busy, so we fit in micro activities e.g. if you pack the swim bag for me with the things I've put on the sofa, then we can go swimming" or "I bet you can't do all your own suncream in the next ten minutes" or if I'm running out of ideas "how many seconds will it take you to run up and down the balcony 10 times". It just gives her a focus as not having a positive activity is highly tricky for (not at home as she has toys, books, tv, lego, the garden but on holiday all those things are just less available).

Holidays are hard for nd kids, their routine is gone, they are over stimulated, switching between excited and bored etc. The key is to be their calm place (given they're not able to actually be in their calm space). Don't escalate or fight/argue with her. Stick to small and simple calmly explained consequences (not taking her swimming is, bluntly, nuts, the activity and sensory experience calms adhd kids down and burns off energy - don't remove things that are helpful to her. It reminds me of a local school who removed adhd kids 10 min lesson breaks as a punishment - it is not conducive to better behaviour) and mainly focus on easily achievable, positive goals and targets (not "don't" but instead "do"). Give her some dopamine from a positive place rather than leaving her to mine it through actions you don't want.

Op? Still around??

5 years olds have 0 concept of the lengths you’ve gone to for the “perfect” holiday. I think you’ve learnt that there is no such thing as a perfect holiday for a 5 year old.

What’s she like normally? Maybe it’s just an annoying phase. My 5yo is generally lovely but then every so often we’ll have a week or so when he’s so argumentative and obstructive. I just get to the point where I can’t bear it anymore and then the clouds part and he’s fine again. I usually think it’s some sort of developmental thing. He is also at peak annoying when he is feeling ignored or sidelined when we are giving attention to his toddler sister. I have found the best remedy for this is just to pull him closer when he’s not being a pain - lots of hugs, saying things to make him feel good about himself, involving him in decisions and activities. It’s all for attention and it’s a vicious cycle because the more unpleasant he is the more it’s tempting to push him away. They are only 5…they are still so little

So she is five and with a high likelihood of ADHD and you are calling her a selfish brat cos she is struggling being out of her normal routine??
I think you need to take a big step back and look at the whole picture.
I am ADHD and so is my son (well technically he is still waiting to be diagnosed, but there is little to no doubt) 5-7 was a tough age for him. We had so many meltdowns and he is the sweetest, kindest kid when regulated.

I think you need to chant the 2 important child behaviour phrases over to yourself.
She isn't giving me a hard time, she is having a hard time.
And
All behaviour is communication.

Whenever we tried to do something nice with our kids at that age, their dad would get so stressed that it wouldn't go down the way he imagine, with happy smiley grateful kids all day. His response annoyed me more than their behaviour half the time, if I am honest.
Children aged 5 aren't developmentally capable of consistently choosing to do what is better for others over their own wants (that doesn't mean they can't do it ever) ADHD children are even less able to curb their impulses and struggle being out of their normal routine.

When my sons behaviour was difficult at that age and he was outwardly seeming to act like a little sh*t the ONLY thing that worked was for me (and believe I tried a lot of things!!) Was to stay calm and quiet, keep instructions really short and simple, cut out all threats- they don't even register when they are in the emotional/disregulated state and young ADHD kids also don't respond to anything that isn't an immediate reward or consequence. Ie if you don't stop we won't go swimming this afternoon, this afternoon is not right now, so they don't care. (Though they will be upset when you remind them of the consequence in the afternoon and then you will have upset all over again). If my son was upset enough to go full melt down I would take him aside or to his room and say. When you are ready we can have a cuddle and then we would sit...if he seemed calm but hadn't come to me, I would aks if he was ready for a cuddle he would either shout no or scoot closer depending on whether he was back to calm or not. Eventually we would have a cuddle. Only AFTER he was full calm would be discuss the behaviour or what led to the meltdown and put in a consequence. Connection before correction.

"When you are calm and talking kindly we can go to the beach" and wait...remind if necessary.
"If you can't stop being mean to your sister, I will have to take you back to the room and there will be no more swimming"

All kids need clear, consistent boundaries ADHD kids doubley so. But if you deliver them with stress and threats and criticism, they can't regulate themselves and correct their behaviour as it it a problem with "doing" not "knowing what they should do"

I hope that helps and doesn't come across too preachy.

A holiday designed around a 5 year old probably consists of staying home and doing half day trips every other day or so. She will be exhausted and over stimulated and dysregulated. Just calm things down a bit, lower your expectations and take it slow.

I agree with some previous posts that you are potentially making the situation worse.
It sounds like her behavior is triggering you and maybe your husband too. You should know that that with the adhd you can spiral and escalate things yourselves so you all sound overwhelmed, disregulated and passed reason.
The child is 5, you 2 are adults. You need to respond in a way that works for the child and the family rather than just thinking punishment over and over. It's clearly not working and the child will not just behave or enjoy the holiday in a a way you think they should, they are not in control of their nervous system and emotional regulation. That's your job to help them and you are making matters worse by the sounds of it.
I'm sure it's difficult for you both too with your own adhd but knowing how negative messages can affect an adhd brain should put you in a better position to not reinforce those stereotypes but you are playing in to it by think the child is a brat. As others have said just take turns having a break from the child if needed but actually try and get them to regulate and regulate your selves. Cuddles, deep breaths and be understanding of how stressed the child is in the environment rather than shaming them for not having the good time you planned. Things never go to plan with any child even more so with one who is likely ND. Manage your own expectations and learn to accept the lack of control of others behaviour and emotions.

So true, shouting and threats just perpetuate and escalate the situation. The hardest thing is to stay calm and then discuss but it is essential.

I cannot tell you how important it is to not only explain what is happening and why it’s wrong, but that shouting is likely caused because you don’t listen to her when she’s calm, or because you repeatedly put her into positions of stress that could be avoided with good communication.

Totally agree that bad behaviour can't go unchecked, but I would recommend trying to make consequences more logical and not too drawn out. If they are kicking off, one of you removes them from the situation until they have regulated and then they come back. Same applies if it happens again. Be consistent with it, but try and stay calm - model how you want them to be.
Using consequences such as missing swimming today for unrelated behaviour that happened yesterday is probably just going to cause more tantrums as they are unlikely to relate the behaviour with the consequence. Now if they were acting dangerously in the swimming pool yesterday, then missing swimming today as they cannot be trusted to be safe in the water would be a logical consequence.

She’s probably just tired! Have a quiet day and an early night! Works wonders.
My kids were brats when they were tired!

At 5, she’s not being a “selfish brat” she’s a child who is possibly ND and out of her routine in a new place. You say your plans aren’t “overwhelming” but they clearly are for her.
bad behaviour and ND behaviour are different things and should be dealt with as such. Shouting at a ND child who is clearly not doing well in this situation is not going to help anything or anyone!

Play fight with her. Pillow fights, tickling, chase games, anything physical. Something to connect with her while burning some energy. That’s not to say don’t stick to the consequences you’ve already imposed, but apply the punishment, then show her you still love her and have fun together.

I think the punishments are probably making it worse. I've been there recently with my ADHDer and had to try to tone it down and make all my responses really boring. At 5 we were doing more natural consequences. E.g. "oh you've drawn on the wall, we'll have to clean that off before we go swimming and pop the pens out of reach". Not "oh you've drawn on the wall, that's it, you've lost your swim for today".

Can 5 year olds possibly just act like this because they’re 5? My daughter acts like this and I’m consumed with worry that she needs to be fucking assessed based on everyone else assuming normal child behaviours are not typical!

Enlighten me- does my kid need to be taken to the doctor for behaving like this as our recent holiday was miserable because of it! Or is that just kids! Are there really no typical kids who act like this???

Very good point. It is perfectly normal for all 5 year olds to act like this when they’re overwhelmed/tired/out of their routine/perhaps on a holiday that they don’t actually enjoy that much, because it’s too hot, they don’t like any of the food, they haven’t got any of their toys and perhaps being dragged around on tiring day trips they’re too young to appreciate. They don’t have to have ADHD or be autistic. (I know OP didn’t say they did, but a lot of comments on a lot of mumsnet threads imply that to be the case).

5 is too young for a child to be manipulative, intentionally selfish or try to deliberately sabotage a holiday. She's almost certainly reacting to the travel, strange environment, sensory changes, your own stress and the fact she's being told it's fun but also being shouted at and told off. She might not even understand she'll be going home again?
Behaviour is communication. She's saying it's all a bit much and probably wishes she was at home with "normal" mummy and daddy. I would just take a breather and do some low key, fun and regulating activities together with her like building sandcastles or looking for shells (or non beach equivalent) and get away from the idea that she MUST enjoy the prescribed holiday in the way you want her to.