AIBU to think laws that fine and jail parents for school absence, outside term time holidays, are ridiculous?

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Is it a good law, fining parents for school absence? What are the good outcome measures, good citizens, with better mental health, peaceful country, reduced crime rates, homicide rates? Has it worked in your country?

Or is it a ridiculous law? Most parents, dream of and love to, have children who enjoy, thrive and excel in school. Parents may have other misdemeanours, but why turn school attendance into the battle ground, the yard stick to measure and punish? Perhaps consider is punishment the right way to go about this, what about the help for every child, and every parent who struggles?

I'm not talking about going on holiday during term time.

I’ve just come on to reiterate what I said on a thread where the issue of parents being sent to prison for their children’s non-attendance was being discussed.

The current sentencing guidelines state.

Triable only summarily
Maximum
Level 3 fine (s.444(1) child fails to regularly attend at school)
Level 4 fine and/or 3 months (s.444(1A) parent knowingly fails to secure regular attendance at school)
Offence range
Conditional discharge - Band C fine (s.444(1))
Band A fine - High level community order (s.444(1A))

Link here. https://sentencingcouncil.org.uk/guidelines/school-non-attendance-revised-2017/?source=7510

Parents would only be sent to prison if they refused to pay fines, in the same way anyone who refuses to pay Court ordered fines..

I’m not sure the current laws are the best way to tackle the problem but I do get annoyed by the exaggeration of people suggesting parents would be sent to prison just for the non-attendance.

I don’t agree with you. We have families where we bend over backwards to help their children achieve, we read with them daily because parents don’t read at home, encourage them, make sure they have the correct equipment as parents aren’t providing it and then lo and behold they are kept off at the drop of a hat. All that hard work and then we need to help them catch up. Reasons being they feel really ill (funny how they come back the next day absolutely fine), it’s their birthday, they want a day off, parents overslept etc. It’s demoralising and so sad for the children.

Those families that don’t care and make a mockery of attending.

I don’t think it’s a good system at the moment, but there really are people who will keep their kids off school for any tiny reason, and will repeatedly do so. I think if the tax payers are paying for the education so that people are getting free education, then there should be something to stop it from being abused and wasted - same with NHS appointments.

Schools are an amazing safe place, and a lifeline for so many children. Many posters simply won’t understand the sanctuary it can be, and that some schools are brushing children’s hair, washing uniform, supplying coat after coat (when they keep mysteriously disappearing), and providing two regular meals to a child, and food provision for the family. Arguably these children should not be with their parents, but the state provision is not better for most, so school and support workers are the only thing keeping them going. It is these children who must attend, and who are least likely to attend. These same parents are unlikely to be fined as a fine would lead to criminality to repay.

TT holidays are a bit of a different kettle of fish. I’ve never done it as I don’t want my children thinking that money is the lost important thing; they miss out of the end of year parties, induction for the new year, etc. One of mine is a school refuser through anxiety so it would be the worse thing to suddenly have school as optional - which is a pity as this one goes on holiday two weeks after his siblings due to attending in a different area and school system - I would love to go somewhere amazing when the others break up, instead of camping in peak season…

I have noticed at my children’s one form primary school in an affluent area, that it is the children with poor attendance, who struggle academically, and live in social housing, who go on regular TT holidays. Any of these factors could be the reason, but I’m guessing it’s the ££ - they simply wouldn’t be able to afford a weeks holiday abroad if they waited for the holiday. The academic struggles are probably a massive factor for the poor attendance, and the fact that the current school system is designed to support only a very tiny sector.

The sysyem is designed and based on the idea that students desperately want to learn and achieve, but are being prevented by their pesky parents who just wont take them to school. In real life the situation is that the kid doesn’t want to go, has no interest, and forcing them serves no purpose other than tethering the nest of politicians who can say "see, we're doing something, vote for me again".

Never been fined but DD2s attendance in the first three years of secondary school was shocking. Admittedly the first year it was mainly due to Covid and lockdown but the next two she was bullied horrifically. Meetings with school eventually just led to hostility between us and the school with the head of year telling my husband she didn't like his attitude and him telling her he didn't like coming down to school every other week because they couldn't deal with bullying.
I think in those two years her attendance was around 60% but what do you do when your child tries to kill themselves rather than go to school? If we had been fined I think I would possibly have had a breakdown because I was pretty close to it. The fines don't help in these sort of cases. Sure we could have paid it but nothing would be solved, she still would have been bullied and refused to go to school.
Maybe we were lucky to not get a fine or maybe it was because in Y10 she moved to a decent school where she flourished and her attendance was 99%.
I'm not saying the school are to blame in every case where attendance is an issue but I think a lot of them don't help the issue. And before anyone has a go at me I know usually this is not the teachers fault as their hands are tied by the government.

It is ridiculous.

And what pisses me off is these people are not my problem. Being able to afford skiing for two kids in the hideously busy Feb half term is!

I agree with people saying it’s targeting the wrong people, yes missing even a week can impact learning but taking a child on holiday for a week is less harmful than constantly letting them miss school- but the punishment is the same. Persistent absence often goes hand in hand with other issues such as neglect, violence and parental substance use and these are the children we should be supporting and intervening for (not including SEND or illness in this).

I started a thread on this yesterday as I was on the fence.

I had a good search online and found out that fines make zero difference to attendance and do nothing to tackle persistent absence.

Therefore fines are a ridiculous policy.

I'm turning this on its head. When my dc attended a leafy, top of the tables primary, the week before the end of term was not a time of learning. There were muck sbout days, board game afternoons, film days, party days. Add in the Easter when three teachers went on early leave and three parent governors took their dc out for holidays and it was a joke.

Against a backdrop of snotty letters to all parents, I complained and was told there were individual reasons and the teachers and children were tired, had covered the curriculum and it was time for fun. I was v much put on the metaphorical naughty step for daring to venture that if people were banned from early holidays, the time at school should focus on learning and that teachers and governors should abide by the rules set for everyone else.

My DC learnt bugger all in the last week of term which could have been used for enhanced learning.

Isn’t it a quid pro quo? It only applies for state schooling, so the deal is free education if you accept these rules. Looked at like that it seems quite reasonable.

I was very glad I no longer lived in England when DS became ill. He often has a 60 to 70% attendance rate due to a life long condition. I do get reported to social services twice a year, but there is no fines or fights or pressure for me to drag a 6foot tall ill teen boy into school when hes not able for it. School work with me to keep him in school and ensure he can follow along at home. I wouldn't trust my ex LA to provide anything more than hassrasment.

This is your third thread on this subject. Have you been repeatedly penalised for taking your kids out of school, otherwise why do you have such a thing about this?

Also, why do your threads always sound written as if to generate copy for an article or a Jeremy Vine Show discussion?

There are no rules like that where I live, I don't know the stats v the UK though in terms of attendance. I would imagine parents coping with a child who is refusing school are already stressed enough without this worry. I have taken my kids out for a week often enough and always made sure they caught up. Almost everyone has done this. They learn so much more about life on a holiday than in school, it's real life education and I cannot see any downside. Perhaps it depends where you go and what you do. Its so much cheaper too so for many they wouldn't wouldn't have a holiday otherwise. Fwiw I was stricter with my first and then when I was told 'they'll catch up' for months on end during covid and that I was a perfectly adequate home schooler with almost no guidance whatsoever, I changed my attitude.

Do you honestly think holiday companies will not cotton on to that?

Instead of it being a 6 week peak summer period (+ Christmas, + Easter etc), it will be peak prices every single day there is a school holiday.

It would also condense the time that off peak holidaymakers can travel, thus meaning more of them could end up travelling in peak and then...

I know of one case where a mum discovered that the holiday she'd booked clashed with her daughter's GCSE exams, and said "It's a real pity, because she really wanted to do that college course."
(I think that, in the end, someone managed to persuade her that she needed to cancel the holiday.)

Ok but how will that work if a parent drags a teenager to school ( if they even can) and the teen then bunks off out of the back gate. Why punish the parent when they've really done everything they can?

Does everyone get benefits?

I think fines should be reserved for repeat offenders who don’t work with the school to try to improve their child’s attendance. I don’t think fining parents for taking their kids away for a week’s holiday is reasonable or does any good at all. The difference in price between term time and the holidays is so extreme people would rather just pay the fine instead, so it doesn’t work.

No it is not “free" any more than the NHS is “free". It is a service paid for by general taxation and as such still has customers/clients and a duty to deliver a decent service within the constraints of funding.

Sledgehammer rules rarely serve any purpose than “something needs to be done, this is something”. There is no evidence that an individual child’s future will be negatively affected by missing a few days of term for holidays. There is plenty of evidence that long term low attendance tends to be multifactorial rather than simply idle parents not sending their DC to school.

But it's not just about term time holidays.

DD has just left school. She has complex mental and physical health disabilities and was at a special school. She struggles to understand many basic concepts and is unlikely to ever live independently.

During her last year she really struggled to attend for a variety of reasons not helped by the school sending out the family liaison person who told her she was lucky to be at the school and that children who had much more severe issues than she has managed to get there. This left her in tears after the visit and didn't help her mental health at all.

Eventually the school took her off the roll and the reason they gave me was that they wanted to avoid me being fined.

If the council had tried to fine me for keeping a physically and mentally unwell child off school I would have fought that in court if necessary.

To me this showed that it was not about the welfare of the child at all. I did everything I could to get her to attend school. Did they expect me to drag her in to the car and drop her at the school?

I agree that attendance is important but there are better ways than blanket fines.

I agree although I’d add the caveat that the school needs to work with the parents as well as the parents working with the school. I’ve certainly known cases similar to those cited on this thread where rafts of medical records, individual circumstances get minimal support from the school who just want them off role or turning up to tick the box. This does nothing to help children with significant problems.

The fines for term time holidays are ridiculous, YABU for excluding that.

I’d love them to fix it so we don’t have to have this debate every school holiday.

I haven’t read any responses but I’m assuming the bingo card will be filled soon enough:

Hotels rip people off (they don’t)
Holidays are educational (they aren’t)
Teachers can’t take term holidays (they chose the job)
I’m glad I home educate (happy for you)
Attendance is important (not for all kids, all the time)
It’s my right (those come with responsibilities)
Holidays are too long/too short/at the wrong time (makes no difference)
The evidence shows (no it doesn’t)

Did I miss any?