Lucy Letby

[kkloo]

New thread as the last one has filled up.

@Dolphin37 yes it is, otherwise the endocrinologists would've come across it. They don't want an innocent woman going to prison for life. If there was any other explanation they would say that-or the defence would've found someone who could explain it. Evidently no one could.

No one mentioned it being a rare condition. @Oftenaddled said the research published before Chase and Shannon's was obscure (not rare), as in not widely known.

I think you hit the nail on the head. It's really not a difficult case to understand at all. It's just never enough for some people. Of course when you focus on medical evidence only it makes it a much more complex case. But if you look at the entire picture it's very very obvious she's guilty.

If it wasn't rare it'd be widely known and documented.

Chase and Shannon referenced over 300 babies in their one study, so it's not that rare. It's an area that is widely studied, not least because studying it is difficult due to the nature of neonates; they don't have a lot of blood to spare for research purposes and are already very ill and frail. The only way it can be studied is by looking at the results from tests ordered for other reasons.

New medical advances are made all the time; it doesn't mean the conditions related to the studies are rare, only that our understanding and technological abilities are deepening.

Asthma is very common, but studies into the condition are still taking place to help us better understand it, and treatments change as a result.

@Frequency the babies got symptoms when the bags were put up and resolved only when they were removed. Not sure how Chase is explaining that one.

They "got symptoms" when the bags were put up because it was the wrong treatment.

https://jollycontrarian.com/images/d/de/Shoo_Lee_Expert_Panel.pdf

I used to work through feelings by writing/scribbling/doodling.

I'm pretty sure I wrote "I am evil" "I'm a murderer" and "I killed them" after blaming myself for the deaths of my mother and of my unborn child.

If I'd spotted things earlier or happened to do things differently, they might not have died when they did. But I don't think any one else would ever consider me morally culpable for their deaths, let alone legally.

I also used often to be "lovely [myname]. But when I'm frightened I respond in a mechanical way. My husband once said that my eyes had looked cold and dead (after a particular traumatic event), and he'd been shocked by the difference.

I also remembered weird details, but make mistakes trying to recall things you'd think one would never forget.

I have no idea if LL is innocent or guilty, although I strongly suspect the conviction isn't safe. But it made me shudder I read that her eyes/demeanour/scribbles were described as showing her to be guilty. I suspect it's just how I would come across in a trial - and I promise I'm not guilty of anything like the crimes she's accused of.

@HowDoYouSolveAProblemLikeMyRear

the issue here is that the note is only a small part of a wider picture- if it was the only single thing pointing to her then of course the case wouldn’t have even been possible

@HowDoYouSolveAProblemLikeMyRear it's different. She wrote "I killed them on purpose" that's why people think it could be a confession. None of her blaming herself tracks with her behaviour on that unit. She never took a break, never wanted to be anywhere else but room 1. Treated baby deaths as gossip. Demanded to be let back on the unit ASAP after her removal and that doctors apologise to her (bullied indeed)

Agree with others that it's the entire picture not just any one thing in isolation.
Her first assessor whose job it is to weed out people not suitable for the job had her figured out. Sadly she played the victim and got another assessor who passed her. The rest is history, sadly.

The hubris is breathtaking. Do you genuinely think you know more about hypoglycaemia and insulin testing than Chase and Shannon and the authors of this statement?

https://lucyletbyinnocence.com/shoo-lee/Summary%20of%20Joint%20Expert%20Witness%20Insulin%20Report%20on%20Babies%20F%20and%20L.pdf

And of course if she was smiling and conversational in court that would have been the sign of a callous murderer. She couldn’t win.

Why would it be? Most babies will not be tested for insulin, including those with transient hypoglycaemia, so it’s impossible to say whether an inverted insulin: c peptide ratios is rare, or how rare it is.

That's interesting. But the context is a bit different.

They have no argument for new medical research, and it threatens the core of their beliefs, so they have to resort to casting inane aspersions on the authors instead.

At one point, they were claiming Shoo Lee secretly fancied Letby, so I suppose we've moved upwards from there, at least.

No I'm going by what the experts said in court. Talk about hubris, do you genuinely think a mechanical engineer or whatever he is knows more about babies suffering from insulin poisoning than an actual endocrinologist? You're so biased you can't even see how ridiculous it sounds.

Bit rich coming from the side that believes the cult-like status of Shoo Lee rather than what actually happened in court (which used to be the metric for determining guilt vs innocence but apparently that's just gone out the window now)

Why don't you attempt to change your beliefs for once? Oh because you're convinced you're right? Well so am I.

https://profiles.canterbury.ac.nz/Geoff-Chase/grants

You muppet

Did anyone report suspicions at the time of the deaths? Am I right that the coronor saw no evidence of foul play in any of the cases?

Hi am a mum of 4 but new to mumsnet

For the millionth time, Geoff Chase is an insulin testing expert. So yes, he’s an expert.

And once again, where’s the clinical evidence of insulin poisoning?

OK I'm out. Enjoy your echo chamber for a few weeks til Thirlwall report is out.

👍

Presumably, they did not suspect insulin poisoning or it would have been reported?

Correct. But with just the notes Evans spotted it within minutes. Astonishing really, the clarity that the prospect of a 7 figure pay day can bring.