Do schools monitor kids too much

[Monitored]

I went to the open evening for secondary school this week. It is points mad! There are categories of points for minor to major achievements and infractions - they even do an award if a child hasn’t been ill! Like many schools, they don’t allow smart phones, but also don’t allow dumb phones on school property (even if switched off). What are the next generation of the workforce going to be like?! Will they be needing feedback for everything they do? Imagine working somewhere with that level of monitoring.

YANBU. It's got ridiculous. More and more schools seem to be adopting zero tolerance for infractions of their banal rules, most of which just aren't reflective of the real world or an adult workplace. We should be teaching self-responsibility, not 24/7 policing.

It does sound pedantic and admin-heavy.

I guess this is in response to poorly parented kids with poor behaviour? So they have to be super tough on everyone, just to get basic levels of compliance to make teaching possible?

I have a primary school kid, they’ve just started using ‘dojo points’ - I’m not a fan so far. My kid is generally a hard worker and sensible though, so it feels unnecessary.

I’d love to hear teacher’s perceptions of these systems

Ours does, they dish them out for absolutely everything, so much so that they really have no effect and just become the norm, pretty pointless.

Can't comment on most of the thread as I'm a primary teacher, but just want to add that Dojos have been around for at least ten years. It's supposed to reward and encourage good behaviour, but before that we did ticks next to names and I remember getting house points as a child. It's no different really, except it is online. It should be good for a lovely child like yours.

Our secondary school does good and bad behaviour points. I quite like it.

If they're a generally good kid they get loads of points - for participating in lessons, doing their homework, doing extracurriculars etc. I think if you're a kid who flies under the radar then at least it feels like you're getting some positive recognition.

And the bad points can be for minor things e.g forgetting your pass etc - but one or two bad points doesn't matter much. So it's a minor reminder / slap on the wrist but nothing terrible.

I think big secondaries can be so faceless that at least it's a way for both good and bad behaviour to be noticed in a way.

It’s hardly a new thing is it? Even if in days gone by it was less complex using house points and minuses.
The phone thing is stupid though, how are they supposed to get themselves safely to/from school without a phone bearing in mind that pay phones and landlines no longer exist. No 11YO needs a smartphone but a switched off brick to call home if the bus is delayed should surely be allowed…

Married to a teacher and several teacher friends. The school's without such policies are a nightmare for behaviour. No rewards. No sanctions. Nothing to highlight to parents/peers/SLT when a students is doing well (or sometones it is a well done for sitting still, because that is tough for that kid). No ability to big up a kid (who is normally really badly behaved) to himself, and his parents because for P3 on Tuesday he really engaged...And maybe the joy from the kid and the parents will mean repeated engagement?
For the high fliers, yes they rack up the reward piunts...but a decent system will have cumulative points/awards as well...so they are ranging for the 250/500 bronze/gold certificates etc

Likewise behaviour points. Teachers need to be able to call out/record/sanction repeated poor choices/silliness/behaviour. SEN is taken into account...and the recording of the points can sometimes help highlight SEN issues that may only just becoming apparent.

And teachers need to know the school wants them to call out behaviour, get it dealt with, get students/parent/school communication going...rather than just hiding it from the record keeping so they can pretend to Governors/execs/ofsted that less behaviour points=better behaviour. When school without it are just hiding it

The phone issue also takes spontaneity away if they want to get the bus straight for a coffee or the library or whatever. It’s not like they can send a quick text home to say why they’ll be late. Their homework is sent to their phone. If they are caught removing a blazer on the way home, it’s another infraction. We were told to be prepared that some kids might get upset at first detention, especially if they’ve been unused to getting into trouble. There was the push for attendance and if child really is genuinely (underlined and bolded in the presentation) too ill to get through the day, they will send them home. If the school gets things wrong we were told they will hold their hands up, but realistically it’s probably our children lying because they don’t want to disappoint us. Don’t use AI to write emails as we can tell, with a derisory chuckle, straight after saying how diverse the school was.

Maybe that's just not the right school for you
X

I’m a teacher at an international school with no uniform and no rewards system. The kids don’t fail all their exams because they’re wearing trainers or their shirts are untucked. 😂 We got a kid into Harvard this year. We even let them go to the bathroom during lessons!
It’s a false syllogism in the UK that all these ridiculous strict rules are necessary but it’s actually just a way to cover up bad teaching. You can and should be able to manage a class without being permissive or authoritarian. This is what I’m dreading about coming back to the UK. I’m going to have SLT on at me to enforce nonsense I don’t believe in. It’s so ingrained that teachers think getting on at kids over pointless shite creates better behaviour when it’s actually causing the problem by alienating the kids who have a hard time in this environment. They need structure and boundaries of course but not this batshit overboard culture. Could you imagine if you were walking into work and your line manager started having a go at you about wearing trainers and made you stay after work for it?! It’s not preparing anyone for the workplace. And they wonder where this school refusal/anxiety epidemic came from!

They are allowed a phone just not during school time. My childs school the phones are put in a phone lock in morning and get them back at the end of the day. She uses her bus app to get to and from school so it's no issue. It's just to stop them pissing around on the phones in school. They don't need them whilst at school.

Is it a state school or private? Do you have high levels of social deprivation and large proportion of families disengaged from education for generations? Are many of your students from backgrounds with no boundaries or support, so require these from school?

The Government have stipulated no phones in Secondary, don’t blame the schools.

Local schools have adopted phone pouch option, so phones locked in them during school day but opened before they leave for home

With all due respect an international school won't have the same behaviour problems as an inner city schools.

Ah, yeah, my son's school has all these positive points and negative points and really, it's dumb. I've explained to him what matters and doesn't. He's not chasing positive points, nor is he being an arse. The teachers all say nice things about him at parents' evenings, so I guess he's managing to find his way in spite of whilst ignoring their points systems.

I am from a poor town and lots of the children at my school were from some terrible housing estates.
There was very little bad behaviour in my school.

The biggest difference is that kids were scared of their parents being called about any behaviour. Parents would be furious. Most of them had been to that school and I think were still scared of the deputy head.

Now parents tell their kids they don’t have to listen to the teachers and they can do what they like. I’ve worked in schools and parents will argue their child can have a phone in class because they said it was okay.

I sat on a call with a parent and the head where the mum was basically saying it was okay if her DD broke the school rule about facial piercings because she’d paid for it. Luckily the head took no nonsense and said he would send her home every single day.

The biggest problem in schools is parents, but you can’t regulate them so they spend too much time micro managing the students instead.

I work in a school that is both strict and lovely, in a v deprived area, and behaviour is very good. Not just that but the kids smile at you, help you, they know we have their backs and they also know we will be consistent with rules and boundaries. Quite a lot of them have neither of things at home, for a variety of reasons. I do think the clear and consistent behaviour policies help build that culture. While it might seem OTT to, eg, tell them to tuck their shirts in, what I observe is that it’s really no bother to tuck your shirt in (and yes we do make allowances for sensory issues), so if a child is refusing to do that (we obviously always remind them fo it rather than issuing a sanction straight away) or is walking around with it deliberately untucked, that’s a signal that all may not be well with that child, that they might need a check in with pastoral etc. It’s like a mini red flag that they’re not on board in some way, that can be picked up on.

As for house points, lots of kids love them and are motivated by them, so 🤷🏻‍♀️

I’d suggest to parents who don’t approve of firm behaviour policies that they do research and choose a school without one. And then see what the lessons and corridors are like. I wonder if you’d change your views.

Exactly this. And whoopie do, they got a student into Harvard. We had 3 students offered full scholarships to Harvard, at a state Comprehensive. All expenses paid.
International schools have small classes and rich parents. Lots of designer clothes. They don’t need the levelling of uniform.
And if it’s an American school, they don’t even sit public examinations.
You cannot even begin to compare.

Also, the praise points are always used far more lower down the school (Y7/8) as, despite what parent may think, a lot of 11/12/13 year old are motivated by them. Nor necessarily, obviously in their overall score, but well awarded praise point by a teacher can make the day of students.

A system is only as good as the teachers/school using it, but consistency (ie a system in place) helps smooth out the impact.

But a crap/deceptive system (trying to hide low level behaviour) or non-existent system means teachers are hobbled. Less consistency for the students can also be hugely detrimental.

Your well behaved, engaged kids get something from it, but maybe not masses they personally "feel" (so the odd nice reward "thrill", reminders of what not to do, evidence that bad behaviour from others is pulled up on). Pupils from/with more challenging backgrounds will get more from it. They need the explicit structure.

In essence, it is probably not all about you. It won't do your DC any harm...but keep their environment stronger by helping others.

Thank you it’s really interesting to see this perspective, has helped my understanding a lot

These posts have changed my mind and I get it now 👍

The intensity of monitoring in schools is very much a new thing, it was nothing like it 30, 40, 50 years ago.

Some of it is very important - monitoring truancy for example.

Some of what happens in schools now is psychologically unhealthy and schools themselves are a contributory cause of mental ill health in young people - it's not normal to scrutinise people excessively.

Should kids be allowed to disrupt lessons? No. Or swear at teachers? No.

Should kids be allowed to go to the toilet? Yes. Or look out of the window? Yes. Or wear eyeliner? Yes.

I get the impression that due to serious failings around behaviour and compliance for a generation, schools are having to rather over correct now, but it sounds necessary.

I feel so bad for the teachers who want to impart knowledge, but spend most of their time having to navigate poor behaviours and weak parents. It must feel like pushing my water uphill sometimes.

So if these points systems bring everyone on a level of understanding about behaviour, then that’s a good thing. Sadly this is where the state system needs to be at, by the sound of things.

Sending huge thanks to every teacher out there and the amazing work you do! 🙏

I think you're kidding yourself that kids smiling at you means they're ok. Compliance is often just masking.

Teachers can't fix things, because the problems originate outside school, so they ask for compliance with small rules to make themselves feel better.

There are loads of kids in every school in serious need with smiles and tucked in shirts.

In fact the ones who DON'T act out are sometimes the ones schools really do need to worry about.

School leaders are often obsessed with the petty appearances rather than really looking at what's going on.

Kids can get harsh sanctions for uniform misdemeanours in a school that ignores bullying and harassment.