Do schools monitor kids too much

[Monitored]

I went to the open evening for secondary school this week. It is points mad! There are categories of points for minor to major achievements and infractions - they even do an award if a child hasn’t been ill! Like many schools, they don’t allow smart phones, but also don’t allow dumb phones on school property (even if switched off). What are the next generation of the workforce going to be like?! Will they be needing feedback for everything they do? Imagine working somewhere with that level of monitoring.

😂 wait, til you actually get to secondary. It’s very different to primary school. The thing is that the awards and the points are fairly meaningless to the kids. I’m not sure my dc even knows if she gets anything. But they are pretty much the only way the school actually communicates with parents.

Behaviour problems are huge! It allows the school to identify a picture of who is really struggling across the like 20 staff who have contact with that student that day. But it also means parents know what’s going on. If my dc didn’t turn up to class or was late or talked back to a teacher, I’d have absolutely no idea. But because of how they award behaviour points, I can look at the app each day and see if there have been any problems and then I can deal with it at home. Even stupid things like not having a pen in class, I can be like, where’s your pen? And make sure she has it the next day.

Or the other week, mine got a detention 🙄 for being late to class because she was stuck in the queue waiting to fill her water bottle after lunch in 30c heat. It helped me make the decision to keep her home the next day because it seemed ridiculous that they didn’t have enough bottle filling stations and were penalising children for trying to get a drink.

My dd doesn’t care one bit about the awards or the points, but it’s very helpful for me to keep track of how she’s doing and where there are issues I need to address. Unless they are bringing knives to school or setting bins on fire, in secondary, honestly there is zero capacity for supporting where there are small problems that need addressing. So it’s on you to do it yourself.

The no phones thing is really important. Mine does need her phone after school as we live rurally and she often goes straight to sports training or her after school job, until 9pm several days a week. She’s only 13, so she really does need to be able to be in touch if she needs us. But they put them in pouches for school and then they unlock them on the way out.

It’s great. It’s so much better than them having access to their phones in school. We are quite strict, but some of her friends have totally unrestricted phone access. They were messaging her or on TikTok every night at 3am even in primary school! These kids need a break from their phones. Their parents should be parenting 🙄 but they don’t, but at least the school is phone free.

I agree with your sentiments, especially about weak parents, who won't acknowledge their child does not behave perfectly.

I remember we had commendations when I was in school but you didn't get them easily. No negative points but if you were repeatedly breaking rules you got put on report.

My children's schools don't have points but they have lesson notes in the school/home app. Teachers can put a note for each lesson if they want to (some teachers give out lots of notes while others don't), green ones are positive, DD tends to get a lot of these sometimes with a written explanation, more often not. Then there's colours for all kinds of things like being late, absent, absent with permission, walking out of class, bad behaviour, and grey ones for anything else which DS gets a lot of, usually for forgetting his books/homework/clothes or for getting into arguments and fights with friends.

Nothing happens for getting lots of positive notes, no awards or certificates, they're just to inform that the child is doing well and behaving. I assume getting lots of negative ones will result in something though, not reached that point yet with DS (but I have been actively discussing his behaviour with his teacher of my own accord so perhaps that's why) but perhaps will unless things improve next year with more support measures in place.

There's no petty rules in either school, no one is getting negative notes for forgetting a pen or wearing the wrong colour socks, only things that affect learning like not doing homework or disrupting the class.

I’m not kidding myself. With respect, I live this every day. Our school has a wonderful atmosphere. Every visitor comments on it. Kids don’t want to leave and write us beautiful cards when they do. I’m evolved enough to know when a smile is genuine, when kids choose to stop and chat etc. You’re fitting a narrative to your own perspective, about a place you’ve never seen.

I’m also well aware there are dysregulated kids with shirts tucked in, I’m not an idiot 😆 What I actually said was that someone persistently refusing to follow this simple rule is often a small red flag that all is not well

Important not to assume other posters don't also have similar years of relevant experience.

I'm sure you get lovely cards from some kids. I would also bet some struggle from start to end, under the radar. Complacency is often part of the problem, and the focus from some senior leaders on petty matters is a distraction.

All too often, good kids don't get anything! It's all about positive reinforcement for the little shits!

I remember house points at both primary and secondary school and never getting loads becasue I was well behaved and naturally bright - my grades were always good. Turning up to class on time wasn't a big deal to me and neither was getting full marks on a speeding test, for example.

As an adult, I know my reward has been a good university degree and career, but as a child it stung and made me feel completely overlooked.

Omg, apologies for my frustrated tone but where oh where did I say that EVERY child was happy? I am well aware of the numerous, nuanced SEMH issues and believe me we work hard to support children in that respect. No complacency here. My response was to the poster’s assertion that I was ‘kidding myself’ about the atmosphere in my school. Which was based on never having stepped foot in the place (I assume). So my response was to assure her that I am not kidding myself. We have a positive culture and in my opinion, without the clear boundaries we have in place, that culture would not be the same. Those very kids that are masking and struggling would HATE to exist in a state of chaos.

I'm that poster, same poster!

I've seen so much complacency, I'm probably a bit cynical.

So many schools claim they have a great culture. But the kids in those schools are not saying the same thing.

I think the idea the only two options are petty rules or chaos is false. Some schools with no uniform, for example, have genuinely good cultures.

I do think it's almost impossible to discuss though, a lot of teachers can't see it from the outside, even though other professions supporting young people regularly raise concerns about some of the practices in schools.

Same here. We do have a behaviour system, but it's very light touch. I have just started to update it as well.
It's mostly relational, but that needs highlighting for people, who come from very compliance-based systems.
Yes, they are meant to follow instructions. No, it's not a conduct issue if they think they need to ask why first. It's actually possible to talk to teenagers and one of our aims is to get them to think for themselves, question appropriately and start to make the right choices independently. That doesn't work if they are never allowed to take risks.
Yes, they are meant to wear uniform. No, the world doesn't end if theirs is in the wash one day. Just fix it.
Yes, they are meant to have their equipment. No, again...the world doesn't end if they forget it once. Ask a friend...
Yes, they shouldn't shout out. No, it's not a conduct issue if they are engaged and get overexcited. That can be dealt with without causing a scene. We aren't raising a bunch of little, silent robots.
Ours hand their phones in at the start of the day and get them back at the end. If I see a phone during the day, it's mine...no, of course not. It gets sent to the office and parents have to come pick it up.

They have a lot more freedom than kids in the UK, in my opinion. They are also much better behaved on the whole. (Of course, still switching their brains off every so often...)

Yeah no petty rules (well DD thinks no jeans in PE lessons is petty but that's quite a sensible rule in my opinion!) at my children's schools but no chaos either.

Sorry to say, I think it depends on the kids' parents. The children in the schools you speak of probably don't have parents who screech 'Mason, are you a ficking div or sumfing?' At age 4 after them in the street.

There are a number of parents failing their children in the UK. Teachers take a hard line, because of those children that don't know boundaries, manners, respect because those things are not taught in the home. We are always catering to that underbelly of society.

There'll be a mix of parenting types, there's only one primary school and one upper school for the whole town so all different kinds of parents have children in the same school. But probably not parents that would shout something like that in the street at a 4 year old, but definitely parents that pretty much don't parent and leave the kids to raise themselves, used to live near them.

Fair point re the middle ground between chaos and petty. I’m happy to accept that. I’d also encourage you (and others) to open their minds to the idea that a ‘strict’ school CAN be a positive environment. Not all of them are. But they can be. Just as lack of strict system doesn’t always = chaos, strict doesn’t always = petty/bad/miserable kids.

I think it’s the level of micromanagement that seems OTT. With regard to phones, I am more than happy for phones not to be used in school - confiscate if used, put in pouches etc. My issue is no phones - including a brick phone - can be brought to school. The head of year made an unprompted suggestion to sew trackers into shoes.

I do agree with you OP that not being able to take a phone to school at all is overkill these days, now you don't really get payphones etc anymore (but agree with not having phones during the school day).

Also agree with you re draconian rules on illness and uniform.

But I do like the reward/behaviour points system.

Most kids can cope with “softer” rules.
But- schools have to be tight on all rules, and really clear because of a small number who
wouldn’t make great choices.

I'm in my 60's so it's quite a long time ago that I went to school. I can clearly remember a system of house points, commendations and detentions even then, so surely this isn't anything new. Of course, we didn't have mobile phones back then!

Point out to them that an award for not being ill is highly likely to be disability discrimination which could get them into big trouble.

The problem is that too many schools, particularly academies, find it easier to set up this sort of system which looks superficially as if they are in control, than to improve teaching and learning which is what parents actually want.

Really?
So schools can’t award good attendance because there are a few children with disabilities? Those children can also be awarded if they come in when it’s possible for them to do so?
The main gripe is often that teachers tend to over award students with SEN or medical/ physical needs, or poor behaviour.
Most schools try to be encouraging and do their best. Stop being so negative.

Move to another school then. If your school is failing and the teachers are no good, it’s simple
You are obviously an expert in the field - so I am assuming you are a teacher yourself?

Haven't read the whole thread.
I think it stems from the very poor behaviour of secondary pupils nowadays but agree it's over the top. In my mind it's much better to foster good relationships with pupils where they want to comply to school rules rather than doing it for points. I also think parents play a huge part in this by encouraging their DC and backing up the school.

Reward/behaviour - more than happy with this too. It’s the OTT level of it.