White working class children

[NotAnotherScarf]

The bbc has a report about a review of the academic system failing white working class children. The bulk of the population.

It's brilliant that this has been looked at but the recommendations are appalling.

Basically its saying that wcc's are only fit for manual jobs. That schools should push towards offering for vocational courses.

That's where my education went 40 years ago. One child from my year group of 242 went to university at 18. We had at most 6 kids from non white backgrounds. Many went subsequently. I have always maintained the school saw us as shop assistants, factory hands and dockers.

The other recommendations will help children of all races...free travel under 22. Promoting reading etc.

One of the reasons why kids from other backgrounds are doing better has been the push to get them into university...ie black boys being actively recruited and bursarys being given solely to them. Places sponsored etc etc.

Whilst I welcome the move to vocational training. And for many people thats a brilliant move, ts disappointing that the report thinks that that's the main option for wcc's. Basically its says "we don't think your good enough for anything else " .

BBC News - White working-class children 'failed by schools system' - BBC News
www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cq51j10q601o

I really, really recognise the post describing the NI system (I grew up there). Far more parental involvement at all levels of society, though the white Protestant working class is tending to behave like that in England. 11+ at primary focuses the mind. And yes -if you're good at science and at a grammar school, medicine is the only option that is put in front of you. And if you're doing humanities, law.

But then white boys of all socioeconomic status would perform the same and they don’t

I really don't understand how so many women can fully understand male privilege, eg the idea that even if an individual man has had a terrible life, he still for example can go for a run in the dark without feeling unsafe. That's just an inherent privilege of being a man. Does it mean we hate all men or all men should feel ashamed of being a man? No! So many women get that concept, yet cannot apply that same concept to race.

It’s naive to think if someone isn’t suited to university that they’d do well in a trade.

We’re talking about a different class of people here. People with parents and grandparents who never worked or only worked occasionally. People who reject being part of society in a positive and meaningful way. It’s these kids that we need to figure out how to break the cycle for and pushing them into a trade without addressing the attitude towards work and education isn’t going to help. They’ll just not engage with those courses either.

Yes I was going to post a similar example but then imagined hearing "not all men" or "men are at more risk than women" and I couldn't be bothered! But I think there's something about hearing white privilege that gets a lot of people on the defensive, which in itself is (a) a symptom of white privilege, ironically, and (b) not inherently terrible if it's used for self reflection.

And I was talking historically where being white was enough to get you by even when you are fundamentally average or below…

now that is is becoming less and less the case (although we can’t pretend white privilege isn’t real and still powerful) it leaves a lot of white males disenfranchised.
i think you can see it in the rise or the manosphere, two sides of the same coin

Critical Race Theory is a disgusting and shameful ideology that has no place in modern society.

I'll give you an example DS (white) and his friend (mixed black / white) both graduated 2 years ago.

Trying to get a graduate job was hell for both of them, both were sending out applications almost daily often with no reply and both getting more and more depressed. DS friend became convinced that his failure to get a graduate job was because of systemic racism at interviews etc. As a result he basically gave up hope because he believed everything was stacked against him with no chance of success no matter what he did. He couldn't see that my DS was in exactly the same position.

Eventually DS got a graduate job (albeit not in the field he wanted). His friend hasn't, he stopped applying for graduate jobs and is simply bitter and angry.

Critical Race Theory destroys hope and ambition amongst ethnic minorities especially amongst black boys. It keeps them as "victims" and "failures" in society in the same way as outright racist policies such as apartheid or Jim Crow but it does so by destroying hope and ambition which in my mind is far more cruel.

My DP is from a working class background; I went to private school. I have a traditional career, he has a trade. Most months he out earns me by 2-3x, and his job isn’t at risk of being taken by AI. Most people we know with a trade are earning significantly more than those who went to uni and pursued things like accountancy. Not all, obviously but I’d be encouraging my children to get a trade for sure. I don’t dispute though that it’s physically fa more demanding than my desk job!

This is exactly the same reasoning why the most disenfranchised group in NI is white Protestant males. They used to benefit from a system which put them at the top, jobs and housing due to living in X or being the son of Y. Those industries don’t exist anymore and they’ve been replaced by more merit based jobs and systems and because education was never the priority within those communities now they are falling behind.

Agree. I didn't think quotas were legal in the UK (isn't it a US idea that's become popular to mock, despite not even happening here)?

I agree that moving towards all degrees all the time is a mistake- vocational tra Course are vital and the relentless push for degrees for all needs a serious revision. Having said that, as a kid from a rough council estate in London who was expected to leave school at 16 and laughed at when I said I wanted to go to university- first in the family, still have relatives who think it’s weird - it is disappointing not to see a more nuanced approach. I couldn’t have afforded to go to uni without funding being fully paid for and in fact, was partly accepted because the college tutor who interviewed me felt they needed “more children like you”. I was very offended at the time, took me years to see what she meant.

we need to give all children the best possible opportunity to live up to their potential. Not just those from educated/well off parents.

They're not disenfranchised. They have the vote.

You're correct. Those quotas are illegal in the UK.

I think a lot of the messaging has been poorly communicated.

Instead of saying anyone (from any background) can go to university it was communicated like everyone SHOULD go to university. Which is crazy and totally unnecessary.

My husband has a "poor wwc" background compounded by SEN that was not massively well understood in the 90s when we were at school. He is intelligent with good GCSEs (As and Bs) but has never and likely never will be a high earner. He has a steady office job with good benefits on the low end of average pay that isn't back breaking manual labour.

As a young man it was more than he could have ever hoped for.

I don't think there is much to be gained from the navel gazing of people who haven't had the experience of being a minimum wage, zero hours cardboard tester or sheet metal worker when it comes to raising the ambition levels of WWC boys.

That’s not the only meaning of the word.

@RhododendronFlowers

Disenfranchised has a literal and figurative meaning:

"Figurative Meaning: Feeling marginalized, powerless, or disconnected from the social, economic, or political systems that impact one's life"

Yes I agree with you entirely and my builder does too, he trained at poly as a brickie and there were 20 in his class, now the poly is closed and brickies are like unicorns in their rarity!

And the corollary can also be true. You can belong to a marginalised group and also have advantages over the less marginalised community.

This is virtually unspeakable, but I will say it anyway.

Studies are contended, but anywhere between 20% to 80% of IQ is genetic. (Using IQ as meaning general intelligence - I'm not interested in getting side tracked by a debate on what IQ is or how it is measured)
If you accept that jobs requiring a higher IQ have traditionally been more prestigious and better paid, and therefore "middle class", then logic dictates that on average the middle class has a higher IQ than the traditional white working class. This is because over many, many generations, the families with the genes for higher IQ have accumulated in the middle class, and those without have accumulated in the working class.
On average - and perhaps by only a small margin. Of course there will be massive numbers of exceptions, but I am talking about statistical effects.

Given that our system is set up so that "good educational outcomes" require higher IQ, statistically you would expect to find that working class children have poorer educational outcomes - even if IQ is only a small factor, it will be enough to affect in the data.

What can be done about this?

1. Change the education system so that "good outcomes" are not dependent on IQ, i.e. redefine the goals of education. This means state schools not prioritising "academic" outcomes which depend on IQ. (I can't see the middle class parents being happy about this!)
2. Change the jobs market so that prestigious middle-class jobs don't require higher IQ (note that pay is already disconnected from prestige in many fields - witness the highly paid trades, or the modestly paid middle managers).
3. Change the perception of jobs so that traditionally middle class jobs requiring higher IQ are no longer prestigious, and low-IQ roles are valued as much as high-IQ roles, and other personal qualities matter far more. So the highly empathetic care worker is paid and valued as much as the socially inept software developer. The highly dextrous factory worker is paid as much as the factory manager.

I'm not holding my breath on any of this.

What an absolute shedload of horse shit. The idea that being white got you jobs.. honestly the entitlement of pedalling this absolute lie is toxic. Stop devaluing people to suit a false narrative. People can find it hard to get employment. PEOPLE. Ever has it been so.

I think we should also stop with the narrative that “trades” are the only non uni route for young people who don’t learn well in a school environment.

The modern apprenticeships in white collar roles are also really good. People can still get the qualifications, which might mean a degree, but they learn in a completely different environment that suits them.

The problem with pushing trades is, there are all sorts of reasons why people aren’t coming into the industry and the least of those reasons is the lack of it being presented as an option at school.

I think white male Protestants in N Ireland have had their hegemony. I wouldn't feel bad if they feel unable to vote or can no longer exclude RCs from social and economic progression.

Agreed that quotas are illegal but it doesn't stop them in practice just as the Race Relations Act made racial discrimination in employment illegal in law but it was widely continued in practice in the late 70s and 80s.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-66060490?app-referrer=deep-link

You can, but most often that advantage can be outweighed by the disadvantages you have no control over.

My Stepson was not particularly academic, and was at school pre-Gove. He did 5 GCSEs, and also did vocational studies alongside. He trained to be a Welder. Left school at 16, went to work as a Welder, bought his own house at 21, and is now working, and doing well.

Vocational pathways were great, they should 100% come back, and extended into areas such as Digital and A.I.