White working class children

[NotAnotherScarf]

The bbc has a report about a review of the academic system failing white working class children. The bulk of the population.

It's brilliant that this has been looked at but the recommendations are appalling.

Basically its saying that wcc's are only fit for manual jobs. That schools should push towards offering for vocational courses.

That's where my education went 40 years ago. One child from my year group of 242 went to university at 18. We had at most 6 kids from non white backgrounds. Many went subsequently. I have always maintained the school saw us as shop assistants, factory hands and dockers.

The other recommendations will help children of all races...free travel under 22. Promoting reading etc.

One of the reasons why kids from other backgrounds are doing better has been the push to get them into university...ie black boys being actively recruited and bursarys being given solely to them. Places sponsored etc etc.

Whilst I welcome the move to vocational training. And for many people thats a brilliant move, ts disappointing that the report thinks that that's the main option for wcc's. Basically its says "we don't think your good enough for anything else " .

BBC News - White working-class children 'failed by schools system' - BBC News
www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cq51j10q601o

Yes, I knew about it young too. I knew my Dad had attended, and overcome significant barriers to do so, and that if he could do it with all the challenges of his poor upbringing, then my brother and I, with our supportive home life, would absolutely be expected to work hard at school and to attend. I knew my mum had had to quit shool at 16 to bring in an income to support her sublings as her family were very poor. My parents started saving small amounts every month into our uni funds when we were born, despite their difficult starts they were hugeky aspirational for us, without being too pushy - we were very lucky. There was never a world where we wouldn't go to uni, it was just assumed.

It depends what kind of barrister for one thing. Corporate barristers tend to earn more than criminal barristers ,for one.

https://news.sky.com/story/the-pay-is-painfully-low-criminal-barrister-on-salaries-and-why-no-one-is-being-honest-about-the-justice-system-13499173

Maybe partly a perception that doing well will mean leaving their area, family, network etc? This needs to change but obviously complex.

I think there are many factors. I think the lack of expectation on young people is huge. So many schools have got rid of any competition, with the concept that it damages mental health to lose. When actually its really important to be able to lose gracefully.

Resilience is much lower, some children seem to struggle with concept of failing and trying again and again.

A school in tower hamlets had 98% pupil premium pupils but they did really well due to two reasons:

1. Additional funding meant they could make a difference
2. the dc were largely non white and from ethnic groups (Bangladesh) that truly value education.

White parents from certain class groups don’t value education. That influence feeds through to them and is multi generational. That said, I’ve seen more and more middle class families not valuing education so I worry it’ll worsen.

This seems to be a healthier attitude to me

There is injustice in the UK, buy equally, imagining you can do nothing about your position sets you up for failure.

It seems unusual, I do not even remember nursery school and came from a normal family and didn’t know what uni was until I was about 18. I literally had a child of my own before I found out.

And that’s coming from a normal family I struggle to see how some kids in a deprived community with no jobs and disengaged parents would know what uni was at 8 let alone think about it enough to decide they can’t go.

At 8 I was too busy playing with my cuddly bunny toys I think I may have just worked out after year 6 we would go to a different school

Went to a really interesting lecture on this.

when mass migration happened in the 60s/70s there was of course lots of racism from British people in power (employers etc) towards recent arrivals.

Caribbean people who immigrated were often poor and uneducated by British standards in their home country- the islands being poor generally.
it’s widely accepted that Caribbean people “successfully integrated”- a side effect of which was, they suffered that racism directly and generationally- being dependant on Britain for wealth and access.

the most economically and educationally successful migrants of the time are East African Indians. they were not poor or uneducated in their home country, they were expelled by a dictator. When they arrived in the uk and experienced racism they did the opposite- detached so they weren’t dependant, mainly through self employment in corner shops.

that meant neither they nor their families were completely economically dependant on systemic racist employers.

But London does get more funding. I think when I last saw statistics it wasn't actually white working class boys who did worse. It was white working class boys outside London. A lot of the schemes targeted towards underprivileged children in London weren't really targeting minorities. They were targeting kids in poorer areas and that swept up large numbers of non white (because London is diverse) and white boys. It would be interesting to see a comparison between different ethnicities in those very specific circumstances

Outside of london you don't even need to target white boys. You can target struggling, poorer, lower attainment areas and that would sweep up a large volume of the white working class boys who aren't doing well AND any other kids who are struggling. So it is targeted towards the issues, not the identity group if that makes sense. But it would be interesting to see something which compared kids within a very small (deprived) area targeted in this way to see if ethnicity is the main factor or if it's incidental

That is a terribly sweeping statement and again it's verging on cultural essentialism and the fetishisation of some groups.

I wonder if masculinity norms come into it a little? Perception that 'pen pushing' jobs are less masculine than hands-on ones?

This might also explain why girls seem a bit less affected- but let's not forget a lot of girls are affected.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m002tzqm

Let's not forget Shakespeare himself was socially mobile in Elizabethan terms : his father went from glove merchant to mayor, then seemed to get into difficulties: but then Shakespeare himself went from actor to respected poet/playwright with a coat of arms. People of all classes enjoyed his plays.

Have you just seen the attitudes they have towards school and education. Maybe vape a bit bless and pay attention in maths

One of the generational traumas of impacts if you rather, of being poor is less ability to long term plan- if you’ve seen your parents living hard to mouth and unable to plan next years holiday or save for a pension or progress their career the idea of working today for rewards in 10 years is hard to process

This!

I get OP's point but there does need to be third route. Trades etc aren't disrespected the same way in Germany, for instance.

To be fair my private girls ' school had loads of vaping among certain cliques : but it was still instilled to work hard even if parents were hands-off about behaviour.

As someone who has spent a lot of time in tower hamlets the fetishisation of Bangladeshis doesn’t really play out either.

reading brick lane gives a decent depiction

Who imagines that? Structural inequality can appear invisible but leads to poor outcomes.

Look at, for example, a girl growing up in the 80s with undiagnosed autism. It was thought at that time that girls were very rarely autistic. That girl was at a significant disadvantage - all her energies taken up in masking, struggling with the classroom environment, sensitive to rejection so she wouldn't have even wanted to try for a professional role or promotion, possibly thinking her only option was to have a large family (lots of autistic women do). Did that girl know she was at a disadvantage? Did she think, I won't bother trying because I'm a victim? Of course not.

Another example is the TV drama in the Small Axe series, Education. It shows how black kids were seen as problematic, as unable to learn, they were sent to SEN schools. Was that their fault for not trying?

Kids who don't have a bed of their own to.sleep in, anywhere quiet to study, enough food to eat - do they make the choice to let that affect their future prospects?

We really need to get over the "personal responsibility", pull yourself up by your own bootstraps attitude because it leads to exactly this. Kids not reaching their full potential and being blamed for it too.

We aren’t talking about working class boys. We talking about an underclass who don’t engage with school or trades or work.

I think that in previous centuries boys who fall into this demographic have always been put down the mines, in factories, signed up to the front line etc. They were seen as having no value and were fodder for war and industrialism. They had to do these jobs or starve to death.

The attitudes this group have towards work and education (and feeling marginalised from wider society) has prevailed but their ways to make money have diminished. We don’t have the need for industrial size work forces where the job is so dangerous many die or are maimed and need replacing every year (thankfully). We do have the benefits system which stops them from starving (again, thankfully).

We need to really think about how we can make cultural changes in this group. How we can make them want to participate in society and break out of their cycle of poverty.

Pushing them into trades because they’re aren’t university material or putting boys with caps and chains on advertisements for Oxbridge isn’t going to make a difference.

@Persephonia1966 That's why I was quite keen on the free public transport for under 22s (might increase it to under 25s)

It would need to be in line with improving rural public transport though.

I wonder if there is a way of improving geographic mobility - some sort of education/training provision that provides accommodation (shared) whilst learning so that people feel more secure and have some support - a bit like uni/the army provides I suppose - but for a wider range of traning opportunities and even just for jobs in hard to reach locations.

I could not have done my first jobs without the accommodation that came with it.

The Rotherham girls definitely were targeted due to being white.

It should be noted that Sikh girls were also targeted, and also some Muslim girls within the community. To say the crimes were only racially motivated neglects the other victims.

But anti white racism was a huge part. In the case of Sikh girls, it probably also involved religious animosity.

They would say you have to work hard at school they didn’t nobody mentioned university until I was in college. I just can’t imagine it’s on the minds of many 8 year olds. My 8 year old only knows what it is because his uncle is currently at university. I just can’t imagine many of his friends knowing what it is though.

And this is a normal area I can’t imagine poor 8 year olds in a poor neighbourhood sitting around thinking they’re not smart enough to go to uni because why would it be on their minds? At 8?

Important point. What creates this demographic in the first place? People surely aren't born antisocial and not wanting to engage...there must be factors leading to it & then making it generational.

I would imagine most kids of that age would have a basic understanding of ‘uni is what clever / rich / insert whatever do’
Perhaps not the actual understanding and detail of what it involves / means / achieves.

Just my opinion though, I no longer have 8 year okd children. 🤷‍♀️
I know of my friends kids who are 9 and 6 they both know what it is, but they also have had older siblings at uni in the last 5 years so it will be talked about at home.

I think the gist of the study (forgive me it was about 20 years ago so I can’t remember the details) was around kids already having a pre formed perception of whether they saw themselves as smart enough or whether they could do that based on their limited knowledge. Lots of self views are formed in those early years, not that surprising

I saw an interview with a young woman who had some amazing achievements, she was graduating from a great university and LLB and was explaining how someone from her poor unsupported background had got pupilage. It included things like working 2 part time jobs from 15.

not to take away from that lovely woman but all I could think is how “felicity from Bedes”(who she’ll share an office with) will land fresh faced, energised and full of life whereas this young woman had already spent 8 years of her life exhausting herself and wearing herself down.
Filling her brain with so much that took her away from her studies: the worry and stress related to money: the fight to get thorough it. And it’ll be ok at 25, but she’ll be feeling it at 40.

and we paint this as accomplishment, a plucky scrappy little fighter.