White working class children

[NotAnotherScarf]

The bbc has a report about a review of the academic system failing white working class children. The bulk of the population.

It's brilliant that this has been looked at but the recommendations are appalling.

Basically its saying that wcc's are only fit for manual jobs. That schools should push towards offering for vocational courses.

That's where my education went 40 years ago. One child from my year group of 242 went to university at 18. We had at most 6 kids from non white backgrounds. Many went subsequently. I have always maintained the school saw us as shop assistants, factory hands and dockers.

The other recommendations will help children of all races...free travel under 22. Promoting reading etc.

One of the reasons why kids from other backgrounds are doing better has been the push to get them into university...ie black boys being actively recruited and bursarys being given solely to them. Places sponsored etc etc.

Whilst I welcome the move to vocational training. And for many people thats a brilliant move, ts disappointing that the report thinks that that's the main option for wcc's. Basically its says "we don't think your good enough for anything else " .

BBC News - White working-class children 'failed by schools system' - BBC News
www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cq51j10q601o

Because white men are over represented as what it means to be ‘successful’ and if your argument held water it would apply to ALL white boys, but it doesn’t. You may have seen a few prospectuses that have some women and people of colour on, but look at the men of extreme wealth, musk, bezos, zuckerberg, bit closer to home Branson. There are many many examples of white men achieving greatness, even from humble beginnings that isn’t offset because now some prospectuses are not solely focused on white men.

try as we might, white men aren’t the victims, although this thread proves the point. We’d rather make excuses for white people (specifically men) til the cows come home rather than have them take some accountability and have a real frank conversation about whiteness, patriarchy and privilege

Depends what you mean by out earn. At 23, of course someone who has been working for 5 years out earns a graduate.

they don’t for life though, and outcomes are far better for social mobility for those who have a degree v those who don’t. A degree- any degree- actually creates generational wealth, the impacts don’t stop with the graduate (at a population level of course, I’m sure everyone knows a million 50 year olds with firsts from Oxford who earn less than a bricklayer)

I work in construction. We pay bricklayers not much off £40k a year- in London. Even when they’re 45, 50. And that’s the top end too.

It doesn’t “only impact boys”.
But perhaps it impacts them more because there are cultural expectations on girls that aren’t on boys in terms of how they behave.

I absolutely believe this all boils down to parental expectations. All of it. What is in instilled in them. What is encouraged in them. What is modelled to them. What is celebrated in them.

That’s what impacts the outcomes. It’s all there before they even enter the school doors.

The white and non-white working class need to actually study hard at school, put some effort in.

Sorted! Stop the conversation everyone shemon has sorted it out

This so annoys me. I have just read an article praising the V and A's East London branch for being tilted to encouraging local DC by basing the exhibitions around current culture among the young (read w/c and some diverse groups unspecified as target groups). Which means giving them things they already know about and like but not introducing in material that they might be interested in and probably should be interested in if their schools were not so 'relevant' to the local culture. Dumbing down for the hoi polloi, basically. I have heard these arguments over and over again: Shakespeare isn't relevant, they don't know what the words mean in (add text of choice) so we can't use it/teach it, we don't do classical music because the children are not interested...It infuriates me, a working class woman whose school (and actually also parents) introduced me to and encouraged me (and my brothers) to be interested in what apparently is high culture which we didn't need (two of us went to university).
I have seen lives wrecked by this attitude to especially bright w/c DC.
Every child should be introduce to Shakespeare, Chaucer, classical music and dance, art (not just Van Gogh, wonderful though he is), the theatre, the AV of the Bible (as literature rather than for study, I think - study requires a more recent translation, but the AV weaves into English literature so that its lack makes understanding more difficult), classical history and myth, as well as the sciences and sport. That's a rounded education.
NB New V&A East is in a hideous building as well. V and A must be turning in their graves, esp A.

At no point have I ever seen any access to university materials use a white boy with a dodgy haircut with a name like Jaxon or Kaiden. If that's an underrepresented group in HE, it's not unreasonable to ask why.

Socioeconomic background is a massive driver of inequality in the UK, and one that is in no way covered by any existing EDI policy or legislation. It's far more nuanced than race.

“being tilted to encouraging local DC by basing the exhibitions around current culture among the young (read w/c and some diverse groups unspecified as target groups). Which means giving them things they already know about and like but not introducing in material that they might be interested in and probably should be interested in if their schools were not so 'relevant' to the local culture. Dumbing down for the hoi polloi,”

wtf?! Who refers to the working class as “hii polloi”?!?

Yes, I agree with this. There is the saying, "Lord, give me the confidence of an average white man."

I think, for too long, average white men (and boys) have felt a disproportionate level of entitlement in regard to their place in the world and the opportunities available to them. But now they feel this is slipping - they see women, and peers of all nationalities, religions and ethnicities overtaking them in schools and in the workplace. Hence the disaffection of boys in schools; the incel movement and the 'Manosphere' and the rise of Reform. They are trying to reclaim a white, British, patriarchal certainty that is no longer the reality it once was..

Women have always known they have to push harder for some hope of equality. So have immigrants to the U.K. or citizens from non-white ethnic groups. It's ingrained through the generations. But white British boys are flailing about because when entitlement and a sense of relative superiority is ingrained. then a more equal playing field can feel like disenfranchisement. The fact is that the U.K. state school system, despite its issues, remains one of the best in the world. But far too many white British males and their sons would rather blame the system than psychologically readjust to a shifting, globalising world.

Agreed - I’ve done some research on this as part of my voluntary role and the only reason it’s excluded from EDI etc is it was just deemed too complex to unpick. It’s the most embedded inequality in the uk- illustrated by people talking about the hoi polloi without shame.

Is how she feels the upper classes consider their approach to appealing to the working classes (and non-working classes) not her own opinion of her own class.

And I think this is well illustrated in the examples from NI that posters have given, it being easier to notice in plain sight in a smaller population.

Well, put it this way, I don't think it's voting for Restore!

Well no, the poster has decided that ie literature from their own culture is less valuable then shakesphere and therefore art from their own culture is “dumbing” them down rather than enriching them.

Authoritarianism and censorship? Careful, you'll give me a big head! 🤣

They need a knowledge rich education to study hard at - which frequently they don't get because the skills curriculum is still alive and kicking for all that Grove did. Behaviour in schools also needs sorting out - which certainly means promoting permanent exclusion for disruptive children (for the sake of everyone else).

How did they differentiate from the education system failing them or their parents?

I do thin nursery helps kids get a good start in education but when I was off work during Covid my DS completed every single piece of homework the school gave. If someone is at home all day they need to take responsibility.

This is a ridiculous comparison as it is using 2 different determinants for each group:

36%of white working class pupils achieve a Grade 4 or above in English and Maths GCSE, compared with 72% of all pupils not on free school meals

Is there any evidence the school is treating them differently

I agree. The parents who don’t work, have no intention of working and who come from a generational culture of not working are not going to be encouraging their children to apply themselves at school and get even basic qualifications that will lead to employment, let alone to employment that leads out of poverty.

I see parental expectations or lack of them can often disadvantage kids too.

White working class boys have never had any privilege. They have been bottom of the pile for centuries. I dislike all racism, btw, it doesn't matter at whom it is directed.

There's something in common with many of the cultural activities you list as being ideal for young people. Identify it and we might be getting to the heart of the problem.

White people aren't subject to racism in the UK (or indeed anywhere else). Bias or prejudice maybe.

@Backedoffhackedoff

I just don't agree

For a working class person, a better job is absolutely the reason you go to university.

They are looking for a better life, for improved prospects to balance the risk and the debt.

Nebulous 'educational value' is meaningless - their ability to critically evaluate texts will not help them in life.

Reading classics, or art history is purely for those whose parents will find them a job even if they get a third. (Oh and they don't have any debt of course - Pops and Gammy paid the fees)

Parents should parents their kids. What's the issue with Gove? I'm Asian. My kids got straight 9s

@Conundrummum123 All your examples of "amazing successes" come from a place of extreme privilege though so it is irrelevant to the conversation of the ambitions and attainment of white working class boys who come from homes that have a net household income of under £10k a year.
Branson, Zuckerberg and Musk were all privately educated and Bezos was given a 1/4 million loan by his stepfather to start Amazon.

I am not saying that the patriarchy isn't real or that white privilege isn't real but the level of how much that privilege benefits you drops off the lower down the socio-economic scale you get, and the data we have shows it impacts WWC boys more than WWC girls.

WWC boys don't look at a uni prospectus and looking for white boys in the adverts and think "thats not me". The issue starts before they even see a prospectus they write it off before they even look at those adverts. They lose their interest in the system of education far earlier by the time prospectuses are being wafted around it is too late.