To think carers should be jailed

[InBedBy10]

That man who threw that poor child into the alligator enclosure is said to be severely mentally disabled. He was out with 2 carers who clearly weren't watching him when this happened. Witnesses have said they were on their phones. AIBU to say they should be charged for this incident?

To be honest this is not the first time i have heard about carers being totally negligent and getting away with it. Instead the care company they worked for was sued. Which will probably happen here. But i think its totally wrong that the people directly responsible can walk off into the sunset with no repercussions. There needs to be more liability put on people in this position.

How do you know they’re useless and negligent?

You are just assuming things that haven’t been proven yet.

Are you suggesting that the child’s parents should also be jailed for allowing it to happen?

If the carers were negligent, then of course they should be punished and there will be an investigation.
But we have no idea of the facts and you need to stop trying to find someone to blame.

I couldn’t agree more.

We don't know the full facts. Carers get close to minium wage. I can't find a carer for my 14yr old ds who needs no personal care and is well behaved. Hardly anyone wants to do these jobs.

I think if they was both on their phones all day they need de barring. Or if phone on their phones at the same time as sure 2:1 is to allow for breaks? How knows if that was even explained to them? We just don't know do we?

Thing is no one knows what actually happened yet. I work in care as an 2nd job and it is badly paid for the responsibility you are expected to have - I've actually walked away from one care service bc I disagreed with being expected to manage complex health issue where we were expected to do the job of a nurse on minimium wage . But most the carers I've worked with are really good people who will do their best for the people they care for.

I work in this industry and they'd be disciplined and probably sacked but not jailed. Carers aren't regulated like nurses so they can't be struck off although the organisation can be investigated.

I posted this on another thread but I'll put it on here as well.

I'm wondering how much training the carers had. Were they his regular carers who knew him well (clearly not), did management do a thorough risk assessment before allowing the day trip, did the carers have concerns but were told to "get on with it"? Could the carer have been on the phone to their manager to say they were bringing him back because it wasn't going well? All these thoughts are going through my mind but on here and other sites it seems the narrative is...it's all the carers fault because the lazy bastards were too busy with their phones
Too many times on here and other sites when discussions around benefit claimants arise there are always cries of "well there's plenty of work in the care sector, they should do that"....so maybe this is a sad consequence of the assumption that "anyone can be a carer".

You are nbu. I was attacked by a mentally disabled person and the two carers just stood and watched! I was very shaken up and my glasses were smashed. They knew she always attacked passers by who wore glasses and did nothing to prevent it, steer her away etc!

Well there was an interesting debate I saw around - should we just not have crocodiles in zoos / conservation centres at all due to how aggressive they are. And I say interesting as it was a very drastic solution to a very unfortunate situation that happened. Not because hundreds of children are being thrown to enclosures every year, but based off this very unique set of circumstances.

Bloody hell. There’s a bit of a leap there from ‘I’ve just read something on the internet’ to ‘jail them’.

I believe (like most people on this thread, thankfully) there should be a full investigation into the facts of the incident and then anyone who might have been legally culpable should have their case heard in a court of law.

There are no doubt lessons to be learnt here - perhaps for the local authority, the care agency/placement, the carers, the venue - but, as onlookers on the internet, we are not the people to decide on those lessons, let alone any potential sanctions.

Let’s let the investigation take place, the recommendations be made, any court proceedings happen, and do whatever we can as a society to reduce the likelihood of anything this happening again, not point blame when we know nothing.

Because they lack critical thinking skills.

Are you a police officer who has spoken to witnesses, reviewed CCTV and the zoo's safety arrangements etc? Do you have knowledge of the man's actual intellectual difficulties and the carers' actual legal responsibilities rather than what you think they should do?No? Then who are you to immediately assign criminal responsibility?

This situation raises more questions then we currently have answers too. The carers could have been completing their care plans in real time as many many organisations use work mobile phones for their care planning. We can't automatically jump onto the 'they're on phones' narrative!

Criminal negligence already exists in law, no need for more legislation.

But, but, but. This awful case highlights the huge social problem that ‘anyone can be a carer’.

There’s no registration, no training, nothing. You just move on if your job goes badly wrong.

Most carers are good, but those aren’t the ones that need legislating. Most people don’t shoplift but there are still laws against theft.

2:1 often isn’t to allow for breaks.

My son is 2:1 and that’s because he requires 2:1 attention.

When escalated he’s actually likely 3:1, but funding wouldn’t allow for that, so the 2:1 would just have to cope.

I never said there shouldn't be a full investigation. Im not an idiot. I probably should have put that in my original post but I didn't think so many people would take my post so literally. Common sense would dictate due process. But clearly common sense is lacking on MN. Of course there should be a full investigation and as I said in a subsequent post if they are found to have done no wrong than fair enough. But I do think if they are found to be negligent then they should be punished.

Well said. I really despair at the stupidity of the general public as measured on threads such as this one. Think monkeys think!

YEEAHHHHH lets throw minimum wage, poorly trained workers, mostly women, in prison for the crimes of mentally ill men. What a fucking great idea. Wonderful.

What about the people who DIDN'T section the looney in Nottingham - death penalty for those misguided professionals - you can't blame HIM, poor poor man.

What about the Southport terrorist? His head teacher tried her best to get him locked up- and failed - OFF WITH HER HEAD?

And you know who is really to blame right? These monsters mothers. Why did they birth such a man. Get them locked up, right?

I take it you are also advocating that the wages for carers rises to cover the new risks of criminal charges ?

What about the person who signed off the visit? Why are the carers the only ones to be blamed?

Well, you’d be in a Mumsnet minority for suggesting people responsible for the vulnerable or children are, er, responsible for them.

MN was very anti prosecuting Axel R’s parents who enabled the Southport killings. No one at the Enquiry is, and the police have been told to review their evidence again.

I can't judge in this specific case without knowing the full circumstances. There are certainly cases when carers should be prosecuted and they are. But the care company is also culpable.

Carers are paid pittance and are often uneducated young or older people with minimal training

imagine if they were your kids / your younger self would you want your 25 year old son going to jail when it was his Employer's that put him in this situation ????

I think that the events of the incident should be thoroughly investigated by appropriately trained professionals.
If there is a sufficiency of evidence to suggest that the carers, or anyone else, committed a crime then they should be charged.
Then there should be a fair trial where a jury makes a decision based on the evidence presented.
Then if the verdict is "guilty" the judge should impose a penalty according to the relevant sentencing guidelines.
Because that is how the law works in this country rather than knee jerk reactions based on snippets of information in the news and supposition.

Reread your own OP.

“I think carers should be jailed"
"He was out with 2 carers who clearly weren't watching him when this happened"
etc

Not a word in your OP about jail “if” found negligent after following due process. Nothing about checking the facts or waiting on the outcome of an investigation.

“They were on their phones” is a trope more often used about women, but since the witnesses even if not malicious would have no idea why a phone might be used their claims mean nothing unless followed up with evidence.

Out of interest where are you that caring is well paid and comes with good training by default? Most of Europe and NA imports carers from low wage economies because its largely women’s work and treated as “unskilled” (or “bum wiping” as one of our political party leaders described it recently).

Given that we don't have anywhere near all the information at this point, the below is a purely hypothetical point about a hypothetical set of carers.

What would be the point of sending the carers to jail?

Prison has 3 basic functions, deterrent, rehabilitation, and keeping the rest of the population safe. Punishment is not the point of prison (or at least shouldn't be in a civilised society)

So, will sending the carers to prison satisfy any of these criteria?

Rehabilitation - Does anyone really think that these people are going to come out of prison better, more well adjusted people, more productive members of society than when they went in?

Protecting society - These aren't murderers, they're not going to break into your house. They're idiots who made a colossal cock up. They're never going to be allowed into a position of responsibility ever again. They're nona danger to society.

Deterrent - This is the only potential benefit I can see, but is making an example of these people really going to make other idiots more careful? A tiny chance, if you ask me.

So we're going to spend a shit ton on money keeping these people in prison, for almost no benefit. Marvellous.

And for those who say punishment is the point. These people aren't violent criminals, they're not psychopaths, or sociopaths, they're going to have to spend the rest of their lives knowing that they caused immense harm to a small child, and the person they were supposed to be looking after. That all by itself is a worse punishment than prison is likely to be for them.