AIBU to think a man accused of throwing a child into a crocodile enclosure should not get bail?

[YourKeenOliveNewt]

Aibu to think the man who threw an unknown 3 year old into a crocodile enclosure shouldn't be out on bail?

If anyone could provide any insight into the reasoning behind why was granted bail I would be very interested to hear it.

AIBU: He's a danger to society
AINBU: Innocent until proven guilty

Not really. A significantly intellectually disabled individual has no more control over their actions than you do over the function of your heart.

So no trial, not even a trial of the facts? No trial for the carers even? Just there was this horrific incident, straight to jail? That will certainly stop anyone wanting to be a carer in future.

Your knee jerk reaction is foolish, cruel and heartless.

You're using this incident to push a horrible ableist agenda. You should be ashamed

That’s wonderful to hear. ❤️

Tbf I expect nothing else from this poster, always the same.

Agreed

I think a lot of people never come into regular contact or have a family member with the mental capacity of a young child.

I grew up with a much older brother who is over 6ft tall, very broad, but mentally young and very volatile. He went to special day centres when he was late teens, so I knew a lot of his friends there too. He has a history of setting fires when he gets the chance and can’t be around children or animals. However at first meeting he comes across as very smiley and pleasant. His carers absolutely have the measure of him and he loves the home he lives in.

TV generally portrays people with Down’s syndrome as being charming, smiley child like people who are a pleasure to be around, and indeed some that I know are absolutely that, however, others I can think of show aggression and are very difficult to manage. It’s also important to remember that people with DS are likely to get dementia at an early age.

I agree this young man should not be in prison

and many enter prison being mentally well and soon become unwell

yes secure hospitals may be more comfortable/less threatening for those that need to be there but they are certainly not places that people enjoy spending their time many leave extremely traumatised (as they do with prison)

TV generally portrays people with Down’s syndrome as being charming, smiley child like people who are a pleasure to be around, and indeed some that I know are absolutely that, however, others I can think of show aggression and are very difficult to manage. It’s also important to remember that people with DS are likely to get dementia at an early age.

Yes - it's patronising to assume that everyone with LDs is sweet-natured, and you do get that message from the media nowadays. Similarly with physically disabled people - they have the full range of personalities that able-bodied people do.

Of course we need to make allowances and to try to understand people with LDs. We know they can't be responsible for their actions in the way most of us can. But we need to acknowledge that they need careful monitoring and efficient handling.

A friend of mine looks after her adult son (ASD) and he frankly bullies her. Her life is extremely limited because it's his way, or the highway about everything: what they watch, meals, where they go, when they go, bedtime (she's in bed by 8 pm or he just bullies her until she goes to bed). He's big and strong and it's not funny.

So pleased to hear the little boy is doing better.

I’m grateful to posters sharing their experiences of family members and acquaintances with profound LD. I’d like to think it would help the penny drop for a few posters, though I won’t hold my breath.

People.

Can we not digress into random offensive comments about completely unrelated disabled people?

Whether someone’s LD son “bullies” them or not (horrendous phrasing, btw) is absolutely not relevant or helpful to this case.

It’s not useful in anyway, and is just random slagging off of disabled adults who aren’t yours, and have nothing to do with this situation.

It's always the same, when someone randomly commits a horrific act, but has no serious capacity considerations, e.g. Lucy Letby, or that Paedophile teacher, you don't get people saying "well we should indefinitely lock up [not just ban them from the profession]* *any nurses who ever commit violence," or suggest that we should risk assess all men who ever act in a creepy way and potentially not allow them access to the public at all just in case they might be paedophiles.

However LD is treated so very differently. There is either a fear or an agenda at play. The way these big news events are responded to are so different and tend to be generalised across the whole population of people with LD. All adults have a capacity for violence, and very many of them have acted violently at least once in their lives but there's no expectation of being removed from public forever. Even actual murderers, with capacity and intent, are not always locked up forever.

Easy targets. Random LD “bullies” aren’t going to argue back on Mumsnet.

Sorry, this should work!
Trial of the facts (Wikipedia)
Thanks @Efacsen for the summary

I know right. I've met as many different types of people with LD as I have without LD. I've met people with LD who are very, very docile (to the point they wouldn't even protect themselves), I've met people with LD who react by hurting themselves rather than others, I've met quite pleasant but unpredictable people with LD who need careful management, I've met many who have been able to learn emotional regulation, and I've met a small number of people with an LD who I was quite scared of. I've also met some very sinister and explosive characters in life without an LD.

But people can’t have it both ways. Stating that the man’s learning difficulties are such that he is unable to comprehend what he is doing, yet then saying that he should not be locked up (secure unit, not a prison for the umpteenth time) indefinitely…

He absolutely should be in secure provision and very carefully managed.

What that looks like isn’t for us to decide, but in much the same way I genuinely said to my 9 year old yesterday “if you can’t be trusted with hands, you can’t have your hands,” he quite evidently can’t be allowed to roam free and visit zoos.

That is the sensible take, without the hyperbole.

Genuinely, are we talking about just this man at this point or all people with a severe learning disability?

And this is why when its reversed carers are afraid to speak up

No it isn’t?

I absolutely encourage carers to speak to whoever they need to get the help they need.

What I don’t encourage is people slagging off disabled people who they don’t live, aren’t related to them, and they have no responsibility for, as a means of making a point on the internet.

One of those is professional responsibility, the other is aimless bigotry.

He may not need locking up indefinitely. The provision made for him to access the community was inadequate but it doesn't mean it is impossible to provide adequate provision in the future.
Some people have 4:1 care when accessing the community from highly trained staff with stringent risk assessments in place. If someone has constant volatile behaviour then they made need to be always somewhere secure but we have no idea if this is the case here.

Well I’m only talking about this man. Because he threw a child in a crocodile pit! Obviously if a person with learning difficulties has not done anything, then out and about they should be! (Subject to their care plan if that is needed and - as I have previously stated - with appropriate carers.)

So he does get a trial.,..

the PP stated

He should be immediately and permanently incarcerated!

I asked without trial? You stated not necessarily, then posted details of the trial he would get?

If he had two carers and they were on their phone as l have read, then they negligent and should have prevented this accident but too often you see people on their phone oblivious to their surroundings I.e crossing the street while on their phone.

Where have you read that?

This one awful deed should ensure he is locked up indefinitely imo.