Zoos are cruel....

[Ihateboris]

And should be banned. It's just so sad seeing animals cooped up, just for the pleasure of selfish human beings.

Yes you’re right, it would be awful and barbaric. Perhaps you have some antinatalist views? “It is better to never exist than exist in a world of suffering”? I do share that view to some extent, but on the other hand, it is difficult to know for sure whether someone else is suffering, particularly an animal, due to communication challenges.

If an animal “seems” happy enough in captivity, and isn’t showing signs of distress such as pacing or making distressed noises (which most of have indeed seen in zoos), is it really fair to say that protecting their species is causing them undue distress and we should stop doing it?

I agree

Especially city zoos, one day we shall look back and think wtf were we thinking

Talk about so-called superior human beings! Resorting to the old "which is an interesting viewpoint…." and having no argument other than, yes it is! Blinking 'eck.

@Elbreth I think many animals that become extinct do so due to the actions of human beings. And I think conservation efforts are human beings thinking they can put things right. Conservation is at least in part about us and making ourselves feel better, it not about the animals or the habitat in which they live. Not really. I am sure that people can give examples where it has been successful and I take the point that nature is in balance and the reintroduction of species can have a positive effect on many other species.
But I wonder if we have to right to breed animals in order to achieve this. What kind of life are they and their offspring going to have considering the state of the natural world right now? Never mind what many scientists predict will happen in years to come. And what about the lives of those from which these reintroduced animals were bred? A life in captivity as a breeding machine, anyone?
I'm not actually against conservation if it's done well. I just don't trust humans to do it well. Not in the majority of cases at least.

As for the decrease in the number of humans on the planet, nobody is talking about murdering people or that the population needs to shrink massively in the short term. It's a long term aim. And as for being cowardly, it's people's refusal to face up to the facts of the situation which is cowardly and we are all guilty of that. I had my heating on briefly last night ffs!

No animal would do this though!

I feel very conflicted about zoo’s for the reasons people have discussed, for the most part I avoid them as it feels
cruel and don’t get me started on the penguins at London Aquarium!

I’m sure some do excellent work but when travelling abroad I can’t help but suspect a lot of these animal rescue places are just money making schemes masquerading as conservation projects.

I do have some antinatalist views!!! I would’ve preferred not to have been born. I don’t think we should persevere life, if it means keeping animals (and humans) in captivity. Animals have greater success at breeding in the wild and have higher offspring survival rates.

I’m sorry that’s just not true. Research by animal welfare groups has shown that a significant majority of species kept in UK zoos are not endangered or threatened in the wild. Breeding non-endangered animals often occurs to ensure visitors have continuous access to cute babies. In fact to keep zoo populations manageable many healthy young are culled or they use artificial contraception. You can find out more about zoos by googling PETA UK or Freedom for Animals

True, but nature has a way at reducing overpopulation!!!

Yes they are. Has anyone seen this: https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/uk-news/devastating-fire-tears-through-kids-34101047 updates say one baby turtle did survive, but that the zoo wasn't even licensed.

I live near London Zoo ZSL. I go jogging regularly in regents park, I can circle the zoo in less than ten minutes at a leisurely pace. Yet they have lions and tigers there, there is no way they live in an enriched environment, they are caged in tiny enclosures. They also hold Zoo Nights complete with 'champagne experience' and food trucks (ironically serving meat) and bars. Just what animals need.

I would’ve preferred not to have been born
Same.

I absolutely think human life is more important than non-human life. We have consciousness and deep, complex thoughts and emotions. We don’t know what inner life animals have but it’s almost certainly nowhere near as rich as a human being.

I don’t think that’s a particularly controversial view. Cannibalism is forbidden but meat eating is fine for example.

I was being tactful. I think anyone who doesn’t support conservation is a moron. Better?

Do you also dislike other species of omnivores and carnivores?
Do you realise the environmental impact an entire population of vegans would cause? Its not something which would be beneficial if it went past the current low percentage of virtue signallers following the diet.

That's because you want to feel better about yourself and can't face the truth. A take it as a compliment that you think I am a moron.

Humans CAN’T survive without animals, but animals CAN survive without humans!!!!

I don't have a problem with eating animals. But I do meat. It's the way it is produced. But to eat other appropriate animals in say, the way apes do, I think is fine.
Producing vegan food the way we do and in the quantity needed is also problematic.
Again, we are back to the number of people on this planet and they way in which we live.

Crossed with your latest post. If you genuinely feel you shouldn’t have been born then I’m really sorry. You’re clearly coming at this debate with some pretty significant issues in your life

Rude, patronising, disingenuous...! Go you!
It's not about whether I have "significant issues in my life", it's whether I am a net contributor or someone that the world would have been better off without.
I think the world would have better off without all people to be honest.
And you only have to spend time on MN to come to the conclusion that many people would have been better off not coming into this world.

Okay? That has zero bearing on my view. Not sure why it’s relevant honestly

It shows animal life is more “important” than human life, as humans literally can’t survive without animals.

Pray do tell us the environmental impact if the percentage of vegans were to increase? Far as I can tell land that is used to grow crops to feed cows/pigs (like soya, nearly 80% of which goes to feed animals) could be rewilded and the land space animal agriculture would also shrink and recover over time. And it would free up space to grow grain/vegetables crops for human consumption.

I think you will find that the environmental impact of a plant-based diet is way lower than for meat.

The fact that humans are more intelligent than other animals doesn't make our lives more important. Ultimately we all end up dead, and the universe will forget we ever existed when humans end up extinct. There's no more or less worth or point to our lives than any other creature - which is none, for everything and everyone.

Agreed. Zoos are cruel. I do not visit them.

Well, no.

In a complex ecosystem such as ours, so much relies on everything else. The food chain is way, way more complex than "humans eat animals so get rid of the humans and everything else is ok". That's simply not true, at all.