Britain poorer than Mississippi

[BritishMississippi]

Our GDP per capita has now dipped to the level of America’s poorest state. It’s not dipped below due solely to London. We’ve been on a spiral for the last twenty years that means our children are facing not being able to find jobs and even the jobs they can find have miserable wages attached to them. AIBU that we need to engage quite seriously with how to bring the country out of this spiral in a meaningful way?

this

This. If you want productivity, you need a population that is able to be productive. 14 years of austerity have reduced our capacity to be that population, because people can't get treatment in a timely manner when they become ill - so they wait, becoming steadily more ill, until the original issue becomes something that is costly and lengthy to repair.

Same with education and training. Tony Blair made a massive, massive mistake when he allowed immediate access to the UK labour market from the accession countries. It allowed businesses to use imported labour at a lower cost and gave them a way to not invest in the training and upskilling of its people. The shareholders won out big time. British workers? Not so much. But never forget that Blair's decision was heavily influenced by pressure from big business - the same big business that the political right now wants us to appease at every turn.

In terms of education we have stupidly persisted with our one-size-fits-really-not-many system. We don't value vocational education and training, instead we demand that everyone who passes through our school system analyses Shakespeare and Dickens to death. When we mention the word 'selection' we recoil - but it is what we need, so that young people whose talents lie outside of academia are trained, educated and supported. Selection isn't a dirty word, but only if we invest in ALL forms of education and value them properly. The Guardian had a very good article about why the Netherlands has far fewer NEETs than the UK, and selective education is part of that.

Now we're in a fix and there isn't an easy answer. But more austerity and taking money away from those who already have very little isn't it. Emulating the likes of Mississippi isn't either.

Yeah, I'm not anti-immigration as a rule. But Blair's decision was unnecessary. It isn't anything like the biggest cause of the main issues facing the UK though.
In terms of productivity. That is GDP produced for every hour of man power the UK was a world leader 25 years ago. Literally we were in first place. But it flat lined after 2008. You would expect productivity growth to pause after the crisis but it never ever picked up again. In the 16 years up to 2007 it increased 27%. In the 16 years after 1.7%. not 1.7% a year. 1.7% in total
It's amazing in a way that we had a real life, real time experiment into what happens when you cut back all the "useless" public services and slash investment into infrastructure etc. It sort of proves all the Keynesians right. But you still have people who are pushing that we need to cut more. I think (apart from the very real budget constraints) we are now almost in a habit of "there's a crisis, cut!!!"

But on the plus side, if the UK has low productivity that means there's lots of space for it to grow and that's an "easy" was to raise living standards. Not really easy but you know. But like you said, you should focus on other things and productivity rises in response

The only thing I will say about Mississippi is they did do a huge programme to improve their education system. Including going back to basics (phonics because lots of American schools fell victim to some crayzee educational theories) and also investing money. So investing money in helping children to read is one way Mississippi is worth emulating.

Agree it’s hard to know because Germany isn’t doing too well either rn.

It’s probably better looking forward and what to fix. Things such as too many not working, especially young people. That’s a very problematic drag on the economy and not good for their MH.

I will chalk this up to British preferring to shovel savings into unproductive houses (Climbing The Housing Ladder) instead of investing in real companies that make goods, provide services, and create jobs.

Well of course you are quite right.

I was wondering earlier today if the World Cup would underline to fans and the watching global public the high standard of living that Americans enjoy. Space is cheap relative to the UK, things work, you can get stuff done and there are jobs. If I were a young person visiting, I’d be tempted and I suspect some of these fans will make plans to move there permanently.

A decent house price crash would help, and taxing unearned wealth and income.
I’ve yet to hear any good argument for high house prices.

It’s not about an apology, it’s about behaviour. You want to know why so many women on here are frustrated with their husbands, it is because of attitudes like this.

If you talk to someone like they’re an idiot, then they call you out on it and you realise you are wrong, the next thing you do is say, ‘yeah you are right, sorry’

It’s literally the tiniest thing which changes the whole tone of what has gone before it and would prove you weren’t a jackass. But by just saying ‘yeah ok’ you dismiss someone and show your colours, it’s just basic conversational skills.

Maybe you don’t do it in real life, maybe you are pleasant and your wife/partner has zero complaints, but I would be surprised if that were the case. If you are like this in real life, I would suggest a slight attitude fix, maybe it won’t make your life better, but the women who have to deal with you will certainly prefer it.

I also don’t believe for 1 second that you would speak to a man in the pub the way you spoke to me here, unless you were friends in which case crack on. If you did you would end up being chinned more than once…but what would I know, I’m only a poor uneducated, sensitive, female.

I can tell you what would happen if house prices fell...

• people who had recently bought homes on large mortgages would be in negative equity. They would be stressed and immediately start saving to pay their way out of negative equity. This would risk having a recessionary effect on the economy
• older people with fully paid of mortgages and really really care about house prices would lose their shit. Older people are the most reliable voting block
• Newspaper owners who own large property portfolios would lose their shit and run daily attacks on the government. More than usual I mean
• many politicians would also lose out because they usually have a house or 5. Or are invested in farmland/a landlord etc
• Everyone would know no government can hold it's nerve and that eventually they will do everything to make house prices will rise again. So noone will sell as they wait for the temporary fall to be over and the market will stagnate.

Any party overseeing house prices would be committing electoral suicide basically. That's why you'll see populist politicians dog whistle the idea of house prices without saying they will lower prices. But they will talk about "availability" and who is to blame for the lack of "available" houses for young people to buy. Available means afordable. But note this is never said.

So yes, they do need to fall IMO. But until there's a really sensible discussion in politics without using out groups as a scapegoat/distraction it's not going to happen.

Don’t know if anyone else has already posted it but If you compare education, infrastructure, healthcare, quality of life, life expectancy, UK about 10 years more, then the UK wins hands down.
Median net worth in Mississippi is just over $7000 (average $375K), vs the UK's median net worth of $151,000 (average $302K). So clearly the median Brit is dramatically better off than the median resident of Mississippi, and massive inequality is throwing off the average.

It's been a Conservative government in charge for most of the last twenty years. And for most of the last fifty, come to that.

🙄 Quite right, what we need is more Socialism:

• Open borders for criminals and unskilled migrants posing as ‘refugees.’
• High taxes on those who work hard or set up a business.
• Generous welfare payments for people like my cousin, whose ‘bad back’ and ‘depression’ don’t stop him going on fishing trips to France.
• Generous child benefits to encourage some of the most ignorant, amoral, uncivilised members of our society to have lots of kids, who they then raise to be as ignorant, amoral and uncivilised as themselves.
• An extra effort to destroy what is left of our national pride and identity. Teach people that their history is shameful and their culture worthless, and obviously they’re not going to care about the nation they live in - or want to work for it.

Sensible policies for prosperous future.

One word, denial 🤣🤣

Well denial is in Egypt and they definitely have less than us

I always advise young people these days to get a trade. AI is going to have a massive impact on most office type jobs, and many others too.

The problem is trade jobs are well paid if there is a shortage as that creates demand. If all the other jobs go then everyone will want to do a trade job. Plus a lot of trade jobs are in the services sector (plumber going to someone's house for example). Service jobs need other people doing different jobs and paying for services or the system breaks down.

I don't think AI will take all the jobs. It's not a productive line of thought to say it will. But I think the bubble is doing weird things to a lot of previously in demand jobs eg in tech. So in the short term it's going to be bumpy.

From: https://www.newsweek.com/are-people-mississippi-really-richer-people-europe-2066233

^However, experts say these statistics may be misleading because of the extent of the government-provided social services that Europeans rely on, while Americans pay higher premiums on health care and car transportation on average.

While in America, people tend to take home more on paper, they also pay directly for health care, retirement savings and cars, which often brings along significant debt, Thompson said. That debt is likely to remain higher than Europeans on average in the coming years.

"When you factor in those real-world costs, the "disposable income" advantage all but disappears," Thompson said. "Higher disposable income doesn't feel real when your paycheck has to cover things others receive through public programs. In the U.S., much of what Europeans fund through taxes, we fund through personal debt."^

I can't read that Atlantic article, it's paywalled, but I've seen people talk about this. Personally the quality of life actually matters more to me than whether I'm earning as much as the poorest person in a poor state in another country.

"Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics"

I can't believe anyone thinks crashing house prices would be a good thing! We're still suffering from 2008!

Yes, that's a very good point. It also seems that many young people don't want to do trade jobs. My friend's 41 year old son is a bricklayer and it's not uncommon for him to be the youngest brickie on the job. The others are in 0their 50s and 60s.

Another friend's husband is nearly 61 and he is still working manually in construction at the age of nearly 61. That must be really gruelling. Plus, he often has to drive quite a way to wherever he is working, so that makes it a very long day! My friend isn't in the best of health, so he often has to come home, cook dinner and help her shower etc. Personally, I don't know how he does it!

Quite different.

Working and paying taxes is how society works.

Working and more and more of your income being syphoned off to billionaires so everyone's cost of living goes up and living standards go down, shrinking the middle income band so there is only low income and poorly protected low earning employment and a very very high income for those who own everything, and a small pool of super rich get richer to the sort of living standard disparity we haven't seen since the late 1800s. Farage wants unfettered early Victorian capitalism basically.

I mean, that's just breathtaking. The Tories were in for 14 whole long years. The economy, schools, the roads, public safety, immigration, unprecedented waiting lists for the NHS (you name it) was in a glorious shit fest spiral of decline. They even managed to actually tank the economy wiping thousands off ordinary people's pensions. And as if that wasn't enough they delivered their ultimate piece de resistance, cutting us off from our largest and most lucrative trading partners who also happened to be on our doorstep. All whilst smugly assuring us that selling cheese to Vietnam would offer a brave new world! You must be wearing some very rose tinted glasses.

Party Politics aside.

The UK has poor productivity, even though we work longer hours than many of our neighbours we are less productive during those hours. Unfortunately our answer is always to work harder rather than smarter, or to have business invest in human resources. We are a nation of busy fools basically.

We have massive regional inequality. London and it's commuter hinterland dominate our economy. We have a handful of other wealthy, productive cities, mostly in the south. Parts of the North and the Midlands are as poor as the Balkans, never mind Mississippi.

Property prices hoover up people's incomes, worse ing the COL crisis and crowding out more productive investment.

We are bad at infrastructure investing, and our infrastructure is antiquated and collapsing as a result. It costs twenty times the amount to build a tramway in the UK than it does in France. Our governments (and voters) are short-termist, investment decisions change at the last minute due to changes in the political weather, and the world and it's Aunt are allowed to object to pretty much any change and obstruct any kind of progress.

I haven't read the article yet but I bet it says at least some of this.

Getting people off benefits where possible and into jobs would negate the need to import people to do jobs nobody here can be arsed doing as well as negate the additional housing etc.

And maybe the Government would like to build some actual social housing and get people out of B&B's and into houses so they can rebuild their lives, live their lives, get jobs etc.

Yes, but the meaningful change involves asking the middle classes to give up their property portfolios and share resources. And why would they? I obviously agree they should but why from their perspective? Make it advantageous to them and they'll do it. What's the incentive? Can't even get working classes to give up shopping on Amazon as a protest regarding their working conditions and data mining, so if you can't change yourself, how will you change anyone else? And I wouldn't worry too much about the next gen. Humans are dying out anyway.

The tax on farmers, the heating allowance, the increase in employers ni contributions ... all the u turns damaging investment...yes in one year labour did much much more damage than the tories in 14 years. Now we have defence non spending (Britain has lots of companies in that area), a leadership despute...lots of corruption over the last 18 months...