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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Was I wrong to refuse doing something unethical and maybe illegal?

31 replies

Addfree · Today 10:09

I work on for a small business, as a contractor and have worked closely with them for a few years to a point they became my only client two years ago.

As I was successful in helping them make a lot of money, I was also given some equity so I own a very small % of the business.

The CEO has always been a problem for me. I find people easy to get on with at work, but he strikes me as not having integrity. Which makes me quite stressed and when I worked closely with him I found I got insomnia and anxiety.

Typical problematic behaviour = truth twisting, goalpost moving, gaslighting, trying to force ridiculous deadlines, playing people off against each other, not sticking with agreements. Very charming, affable, but just snake-like and reacts with rage if you dissent.

One particular problem was me is that he's always pushing boundaries of what is or isn't ethical in a way that makes me uncomfortable.

For example he might lie to thousands of clients in order to make more sales, or he might break terms of conditions of a supplier and say it doesn't matter because they won't find out. And he'd force me to go along with it.

I understand to a degree this is founder mentality, but as I'm a really ethical person that's uncomfortable with anything like this, I've taken a step back to avoid the stress he causes me.

Anyway, I was doing a project for them under really high pressure recently, and it was a project that involved financial services so everything about it was extremely highly regulated. Every word was scrutinised by experts for weeks.

The CEO wasn't really involved, but then at the 11th hour, the he tried to get me to change something that was going out to a million customers which broke significant FCA guidelines.

I explained calmly and patiently that we couldn't do that and he went absolutely mad at me - threats, insults, telling me I had no authority. I told him if he wanted to do it, he could, but that I didn't want to be involved.

To be clear = what he was asking me to do was definitely unethical, dishonest and probably also illegal. He was doing it when there was literally about 15 minutes before going to print and as mentioned dealing with him has already given me insomnia and anxiety.

But he's been very threatening. I'm on a retainer for example where I'm paid every month and I'm a single parent and he's threatened to stop paying me as a result of my refusal.

In terms of potential results, no I was not personally at risk (beyond Professional damage if it got out) but he was at risk along with the international project manager. Quite serious risk.

Professionally speaking was I in the wrong here? Are you meant to just follow orders even if you believe them to be unethical or even illegal?

I've got no money for lawyers, and because he's said he's stopping my retainer I'm really panicking.

OP posts:
Nodwyddaedafedd · Today 10:12

You need to get out of there.
It's not worth it. He will keep this up and now he's knows you can / will stand up to him he's going to get worse.

DPotter · Today 10:16

Yep - make your plans to leave asap

CMOTDibbler · Today 10:16

You were absolutely not wrong at all, and I’d whistleblow to the FCA

Brunchatstephanies · Today 10:21

Get out of there.

I think this is more common than it should be at CEO level as the dark tetrad traits are known to feature at high level among them.

Just get out.

TheThunderRolls · Today 10:24

You should never, ever engage in unethical or illegal practices for a job or otherwise. You need to find another job, asap.

CaptainBeefheartspal · Today 10:27

Try to find anything quickly to tide you over. Can you cash in your shares with this company?

TheMimsy · Today 10:28

Start networking for more work with others now. Even if it’s small or one off jobs.

have you any savings put aside.

I’ve been stung like this as a self employed person and ending up with one client rather than lots of eggs on my basket. Never again.

you have a contract right and termination clause?

can you threaten to report any wrongdoing if he makes moves to terminate you immediately?

find a way out asap.

Does the CEO have total control or report to a board that actually hold power?

realistically this won’t improve. Start making plans. Head down if you can. Make/plan an exit.

good luck @Addfree

Pearlstillsinging · Today 10:30

Obviously you were not unreasonable in this instance BUT YABU to have restricted yourself to working solely for this company, while knowing what the CEO was like and not leaving yourself an easy exit. Do you check his requirements by email? You should have a paper trail in case action is taken against you.

Erin1975 · Today 10:37

Firstly you are absolutely correct to refuse to do someting that goes agains FCA rules. It sounds like this relationship has broken down and you need to find a new contract or employment.

If you are a contractor then there shold be a clause in your contract which details how much notice either party has to give to end the contract. If he is going to stop paying you then you need to check the contract to see how he can go about doing that. They may or may not have to give you some payment depending on how it was agreed the contract can be terminated.

The fact you own a small percentage of the company is likely to be irrelevant. It only has value if you can sell it to someone and if he owns the other percentage then he is the only person you can realistically sell it to.

Hoppinggreen · Today 10:40

Sounds like you are an Employee with all the rights that entails
Get proper Legal Advice

Tortephant · Today 10:40

This is not founder/entrepreneur mentality at all. .

protect your own reputation and integrity, these come above all else. He’s behaviour is not something to be associated with.

speak to CA. And as others have said, whistle blow.

whitefluffydog · Today 10:41

you are financially abused and coerced by an employer

TheBloomingDahlia · Today 10:42

Hoppinggreen · Today 10:40

Sounds like you are an Employee with all the rights that entails
Get proper Legal Advice

If she is a contractor on retainer then it sounds like she’s self employed with barely any rights

Gladystheimpaler · Today 10:49

Have you put down your concerns in writing? I wpuld even if its after the fact, just an email to say 'as we discussed, I have advised you not to proceed with x course of action and advised you if the risks'

It looks like you are going to need a new job whether you leave or are pushed, so cover your arse now. If you leave, you can document all the concerns you have had in an email rather than ringfenced to this most recent one, and emphasise how you have advised and recommended against these each time but recognise - as he has stated - that the decision ultimately sits with him.

whackwhackoops · Today 11:00

Addfree · Today 10:09

I work on for a small business, as a contractor and have worked closely with them for a few years to a point they became my only client two years ago.

As I was successful in helping them make a lot of money, I was also given some equity so I own a very small % of the business.

The CEO has always been a problem for me. I find people easy to get on with at work, but he strikes me as not having integrity. Which makes me quite stressed and when I worked closely with him I found I got insomnia and anxiety.

Typical problematic behaviour = truth twisting, goalpost moving, gaslighting, trying to force ridiculous deadlines, playing people off against each other, not sticking with agreements. Very charming, affable, but just snake-like and reacts with rage if you dissent.

One particular problem was me is that he's always pushing boundaries of what is or isn't ethical in a way that makes me uncomfortable.

For example he might lie to thousands of clients in order to make more sales, or he might break terms of conditions of a supplier and say it doesn't matter because they won't find out. And he'd force me to go along with it.

I understand to a degree this is founder mentality, but as I'm a really ethical person that's uncomfortable with anything like this, I've taken a step back to avoid the stress he causes me.

Anyway, I was doing a project for them under really high pressure recently, and it was a project that involved financial services so everything about it was extremely highly regulated. Every word was scrutinised by experts for weeks.

The CEO wasn't really involved, but then at the 11th hour, the he tried to get me to change something that was going out to a million customers which broke significant FCA guidelines.

I explained calmly and patiently that we couldn't do that and he went absolutely mad at me - threats, insults, telling me I had no authority. I told him if he wanted to do it, he could, but that I didn't want to be involved.

To be clear = what he was asking me to do was definitely unethical, dishonest and probably also illegal. He was doing it when there was literally about 15 minutes before going to print and as mentioned dealing with him has already given me insomnia and anxiety.

But he's been very threatening. I'm on a retainer for example where I'm paid every month and I'm a single parent and he's threatened to stop paying me as a result of my refusal.

In terms of potential results, no I was not personally at risk (beyond Professional damage if it got out) but he was at risk along with the international project manager. Quite serious risk.

Professionally speaking was I in the wrong here? Are you meant to just follow orders even if you believe them to be unethical or even illegal?

I've got no money for lawyers, and because he's said he's stopping my retainer I'm really panicking.

My suggestion too - under the FCA you can rely on them for complete anonymity too. Keep yourself protected.

Edited - sorry meant to quote "report to FCA"

Needtosoundoffandbreathe · Today 11:04

Speak to ACAS or CAB. I wouldn't continue to work for someone in those circumstances and I would tell him why. Report him and let him deal with the consequences.

APinkAndSpottyGiraffey · Today 11:15

First answer nails it.

Btw, a ‘highly ethical person’ would not be working for this man with any possible alternative available.

I’d also recommend liquidating your shares asap as this business may not be in around for long!

YoBetty · Today 11:17

TheBloomingDahlia · Today 10:42

If she is a contractor on retainer then it sounds like she’s self employed with barely any rights

The OP has said that this business is her only client and she isn't doing any work for anybody else. There are rules governing who is and who is not considered an employee on the HMRC website. That means you should be able to set your own pay and conditions, hours of work, method of payment and a host of other things. If you can't do that, then it makes you an employee.

The other thing to consider of course, is that the OP is a shareholder in the business, so it is going to be a lot more difficult for the business owner than he thinks it is to get rid of her.

OP - if you think this is unethical and probably illegal, don't do it. Your professional integrity is at stake here, and you could be held liable if you do something you know to be wrong. I used to be self-employed and more than one of my clients asked me to fiddle their VAT for them. I declined and told them they were no longer my client.

BuckChuckets · Today 11:24

Being freelance and not having enough clients that losing one or too won't have too much of an impact is a very risky move. Having just one client is absolutely crazy!

Hoppinggreen · Today 11:26

TheBloomingDahlia · Today 10:42

If she is a contractor on retainer then it sounds like she’s self employed with barely any rights

I don't think she is
Its not a decision solely in her or the Companys hands, there are official guidelines from HMRC
Purely from what she says here it sounds like she may be considered employed in legal terms and that usually comes with rights

MJxJones · Today 11:27

Did he put in writing that he's not paying your retainer?. If not email him today and get him to confirm and the reason why.

DinoLil · Today 11:30

Don't do it.
I found myself in exactly the same situation ten years ago, got the blame and ended up with a suspended prison sentence.
Get away. FAST!

Snaletrale · Today 11:33

Did he go ahead and do it anyway? If he did, you have a bargaining chip for your retainer by threatening to report him.

Addfree · Today 11:33

Thank you.

I don't have a company really, I just started out freelance doing a few hours a week on ad hoc projects. Things sort of escalated and I ended up being full time (and then some) and when my hourly / performance based fees got very high (because I was doing well) they switched me to a monthly retainer + equity.

I work full time for them. I am presented publicly as an employee and so on, so I think I probably am in working practice an employee but when I said this to the CEO he told me I'd get in trouble with HMRC if I said that. Which I don't understand because I pay more tax and not less being self employed. Threatening me subtly isn't abnormal for him.

What he asked me to do, if it went public, which it had a possibility to would have ruined my career in any serious business. I checked and it was almost definitely illegal. Selling of financial products in a misleading way. This isn't the first time he's pressured me to do something not technically legal but this was definitely the worst.

I'm glad people think I did the right thing because he really got in my head telling me I had no authority to refuse a simple request, that he was the decision maker, that nobody else at the company would do that and then he really assassinated my character by claiming colleagues have told him behind my back that I don't treat him with enough respect.

In reality many colleagues have told me behind his back that they think he's unfit for his job, dishonest, unethical, etc. but I would never say that and I think he's probably trying to punish me mentally and emotionally for saying no.

OP posts:
Hoppinggreen · Today 11:34

You are unlikely to be in trouble with HMRC but they will
How do you pay Tax?

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