AIBU to think UK childcare for under-fives is fundamentally broken?

[Nottoobadreally]

To believe that under 5s childcare in England is broken. My child attends nursery 4 days a week (I have to pay for 8.5 hours a day, though she attends only 7 hours as we are locked into full days). Not sure what other parts of the UK are experiencing. My monthly bill in June is £889.48. Mostly "consumables" as we have the 30 hours funding. We are on our first holiday in 2 years for 1 week of that (no reduction). This is monthly so over £10k a year in nursery fees and so it is more than our mortgage. She doesnt wear nappies, the staffing is around 1:8.

Aibu to think the system is broken and the government should fund universal childcare until school? All local nurseries (south-east england) have similar prices as national insurance has risen for them, but funding hasn't. I'm aware the staff aren't rolling in it and even with funding at this level, staff are mostly on minimum wage.

I have older children and amounts weren't much more before the new funding. The staffing ratios at that time were so much better though. Now there's not the staffing ratio to take children to the toilet. A recent email was sent asking parents to keep their children off nursery for 1 month while potty training due to the number of accidents (yes, whilst paying over £1000 if your child attends full-time).

Yes- you're being unreasonable. You decided to have children, you should funding them.

No- yanbu- the childcare system for under 5s is broken and 30 hours free childcare is non-existant.

Yes, this is the future for sure - the world has made it so expensive and difficult to bring up children now that people with any sense are opting out. I don’t blame them - I would too if I was younger and navigating the world as it is today. And then we keep getting incredulous newspaper articles scratching their heads over why the birth rates could possibly be going down so much!

Yes the government could afford this if they stopped wasting millions in social care for special needs teenagers. Look at this article for an example of that. Imagine how many nursery places the £2m spent on one teenager could provide. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cwy2vxp48y8o

The 30hrs being term time adds to the confusion I think. It made sense when it wss for the preschool year (and 15hrs).

No, it’s you and your husband’s choice. But you’ve made childcare a female issue, which is a huge part of the problem.

There is no UK system. That’s the whole point of devolution.

No. Actually I was talking about friends male and female with phds. My husband had 1 year paternity leave and works part-time as i'm the higher earner. I think it was you that assumed i made it a female problem? It's a universal problem for families.

My kids are well beyond nursery age now but for fun I looked up what their old nursery is charging. They have a £15.50 a day for 'food and snacks' and £4.50 a day for 'care' which covers nappies, wipes and suncream.

Apart from feeding toddlers fillet mignon for lunch, using an astronomical number of nappies and wipes and an entire bottle of suncream daily no-one is going to even come close to spending that amount per child. I can't see many nurseries being that transparent either about what they are really spending it on because it ain't food, nappies and suncream.

Maybe the government could just take the kids straight from the hospital and give them back at 21 to save us the bother of parenting.

But does the subsidy result in a lower cost overall? Genuine question. It seems the extension of funding in England has just increased prices overall so whilst more of the hours are 'free', parents are paying the same as I was a few years ago at full price.

You referred only to your female friends and your other posts are about “I pay” “I can’t find a childminder”……. Not “we”.

No idea. But in England you’re subsidised from 9 months had here it’s only universal at age 2 or 3. (There was nothing when my teen was little.)

We have relocated to Scandinavia and child care isn't free but the price is very different.

So are the taxes!

Nurseries are blatantly taking the “free funding” money and then charging on top saying it’s for “consumables”. Now whether they need to or not to cover costs I have no idea. I don’t know how much the govt pay them but I can well believe it’s not enough. The same as only allowing universities to charge just under 10k a year fees isn’t enough and now Higher Education is in a mess.

I would not send my kid to a nursery where they stated they don’t have enough staff to take kids to the toilet. Even when potty training is done kids need help with clothes, washing hands, etc. my Dd couldn’t wipe her own bum at 3yo, nkt well anyway. And would certainly have had poo left on her hands if I hadn’t been there. that’s basic childcare. It’s a nursery not school!

I'm a little unsure of this as a response and a few others that are a little strange. I am going to go offline now amd not read any more of this thread. Enjoy the rest of your bank holiday everyone!!! Thanks to those who replied with polite and considered answers.

It should only be funded for working parents.

And yes OP all the gov systems are broken.

Have to say I don't agree. I have two in nursery 3 days a week. Small discount for the second (which is very nice of them as the T&C's do say discount is only for 5 days full time children). For the first the bill is £740 a month, of which we pay £592 because of the tax free childcare. We get the 30 hours of course but it's stretched over the year so is really 22 hours a week ie 10 for first 2 days then 2 on the 3rd day, so the 3rd (and 4th for you) day jumps the cost up a LOT. You'd find if you drop to 3 days it feels a lot less.

I am a small business owner though totally different field and still have to pay rent, rates and staff every day so I'm afraid I don't see the argument that bank holidays or children's holidays should make a difference to what a parent pays.

I feel it's worth every penny tbh. I am totally confident the staff care brilliantly, they seem to genuinely like the children, they put on a wide range of activities as well as free play, most of the day outdoors getting messy, plus as school nears lots of gentle introductions to school readiness, lots of staff around. I think my children will find the lack of staff and fun quite different at school!
The potty training rule at yours is ridiculous though. My kids both went in on day 3 or 4 and had 5 ish changes a day which the staff were unfazed by and in fact were the ones telling us not to worry and they'd get it in a few weeks, and they were right. I would definitely be annoyed at this month off rule.

I’m in Scotland and we don’t get any funded hours until the child turns 3. There are funded hours - but eligibility is much, much narrower than England. So full time childcare is about £2k a month in our area. It is madness.

When my children were young and in nursery I basically earned what we paid out in fees. I decided to go back to work as it meant I could stay with that company rather than stay at home for 5 years and then returned to work in a different job. I didn’t begrudge basically working for free for a few years as it was our choice to have children.

I don't think children under 4yrs should be in full time childcare. Long nursery days don't benefit them, quite the opposite.

I would prefer the government pass legislation to allow parents family friendly hours and to benefit from each other's tax free allowance. Mortgage holidays, fair rents.

Mention this on MN and there's an outcry of "but what about my career! My pension!" If you're prioritising that then suck up the childcare costs.

I plough a lonely furrow on MN but in RL hardly anyone I know had both parents working full time when their kids were very young. Your friends' PhDs aren't going to disappear if they take some time out to raise their kids.

Edited to try and remove stupid GIF

No idea where that stupid GIF appeared from.

Anyway I was replying to this comment: It should only be funded for working parents

No. You cannot discriminate by not providing early years education for all children.

I don’t think the country could ever afford to fund universal childcare. It never would or has.

Parents need to work out what they can afford.

I hate to be that person but ...

My DC are adults. No childcare subsidies. I worked PT and our monthly childcare bill for our childminder was more than my monthly salary. We paid it so that I could continue my career.

I think 30 hours of childcare per week is brilliant. I wouldn't want it taken away. But it pisses me off that people are complaining it's not enough.

Sure, but increase basic rate of tax 5% and reduce tax free earnings to zero to help pay for it (and other things)

I agree with your sentiment but your initial post isn’t entirely correct. Ratios will be within legal limits. And of course you also need to pay when you are away on holiday - you don’t get a mortgage break when you go away, do you?!