AIBU to think UK childcare for under-fives is fundamentally broken?

[Nottoobadreally]

To believe that under 5s childcare in England is broken. My child attends nursery 4 days a week (I have to pay for 8.5 hours a day, though she attends only 7 hours as we are locked into full days). Not sure what other parts of the UK are experiencing. My monthly bill in June is £889.48. Mostly "consumables" as we have the 30 hours funding. We are on our first holiday in 2 years for 1 week of that (no reduction). This is monthly so over £10k a year in nursery fees and so it is more than our mortgage. She doesnt wear nappies, the staffing is around 1:8.

Aibu to think the system is broken and the government should fund universal childcare until school? All local nurseries (south-east england) have similar prices as national insurance has risen for them, but funding hasn't. I'm aware the staff aren't rolling in it and even with funding at this level, staff are mostly on minimum wage.

I have older children and amounts weren't much more before the new funding. The staffing ratios at that time were so much better though. Now there's not the staffing ratio to take children to the toilet. A recent email was sent asking parents to keep their children off nursery for 1 month while potty training due to the number of accidents (yes, whilst paying over £1000 if your child attends full-time).

Yes- you're being unreasonable. You decided to have children, you should funding them.

No- yanbu- the childcare system for under 5s is broken and 30 hours free childcare is non-existant.

Can the government afford to fund all childcare till school starts? How would they do that? By cutting back in other areas? Raising taxes? I had two in nurseries in London and the 30 hrs free when they turned three, and the tax free element, made a huge difference to us. Our children were three years apart for a reason!

It is utterly broken, yes.

Especially when you throw in absent father's not paying CMS.

And it doesn't have to be that way: in other countries it is heavily subsidized.

Bear in mind too these are private organisations: some people are making FORTUNES from nurseries.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4g7d6ngjldo

This is being looked into. The extras that parents are having to pay is extreme and frankly some are taking the mick.
Extras are supposed to be voluntary but it’s not presented that way to parents at all.

Where we live fulltime childcare is £84 a month for us as she’s a second child, if she was the first it would be about £120. Even then its capped at a percentage if earnings, I think 3% for the first child, so very low earners can afford it. If she was our third it would be about £40, a forth it would be £0. We used to pay more than £84 a day.

We pay slightly less in taxes here, I mean like 2.4% less, I think the difference here is thqt childhood is seen as an investment in society as a whole, rather than a private parental bill.

Yes, I have 5+ years between my children too (older 2 in primary). But it seems numbers of children has gone up, staffing ratios are now very high and facilities have stayed the same. There's 3 toilets for up to 60 children to use. How can this work when little ones can't hold on?

Taking too much time out of working when children are very young can really damage lifetime earnings and tax paid long-term as your 30s/40s is when pay should really accelerate.

@Simonjt sound alike they have a subsided system similar to where we live.

Here it's $7 a day, subsided, government run daycares. Both my kids attended and I cannot praise it enough. Very high standards of pedagogy, food was amazing, certain academic targets to achieve etc. Loads of outdoor items, etc.

Yes, we were told if we didnt pay the "optional.extras" the nursery would close and/or we might lose our place. I think our bill is possibly higher at nearly £900 fully funded for 4 days a week. I had a dream the other day the costs would be deemed illegal and we'd all get refunded and be able to buy a car.

Years ago, we were able to help each other out in an unregulated way. So you could pay a neighbour or friend with a similar age child a small amount. Only people who needed serious full time childcare needed to pay a serious amount, and they were earning enough to justify it.

But there were tragedies where Dc were inadequately cared for. So regulation and inspection increased, qualifications for carers, and now it takes all your pay so is hard to justify/has to be topped up by government subsidies.

I honestly don’t know the answer.

Its complex. Nurseries are private buisnesses. They have to pay wages and national insurance for staff... tbats the admin staff, cleaners, the chef, the handyman etc, not just the carers. Then the property costs... rent/mortgage, council tax, utilitities etc. The consumables... toys, nappies, craft, food, toilet paper...
Its not cheap. The funding is insuffient in many places.

There needs to be more State run childcare, with some of those costs removed.

there needs to be an overhaul- have a look at other countries and see what works, what’s affordable and what isn’t

What does the government subsidy provide? On the radio this morning a journalist who has been investigating it said a nursery is on average £1.10 an hour per child down based on what they are given. That doesn’t include consumables. And in expensive areas it will be far higher

and then the NI change and minimum wage increases will have hit childcare hard - particularly getting rid of the lower limit for NI

so it needs a proper review and all aspects considered - not just piecemeal

With 30 free hours, we pay approx £400 a month for 4 days a week with a childminder. I wouldn’t touch a nursery. Far too expensive. We provide all food and nappies / wipes.

Well, you get much more of a subsidy than parents in Wales do currently. There is no “uk childcare” as it is devolved.

It's extremely complex isn't it. I can really only think that moving nurseries into schools where numbers are dropping, could help.

It does seem to need a complete re-think. Almost all my female friends from work decided to get married but not have children. This, for all, was about it taking 15+ years to get to where they needed career-wise and not wanting to lose it. We are in a situation where it's a bigger risk to have children, the better your job is and some of the people that are more considered are deciding having children is not for them. This could change society.

Aibu to think the system is broken and the government should fund universal childcare until school?

But yes, you are unreasonable to think this.

Your choice to have children. Your choice to use nursery. You aren’t paying the full cost and the rest of us shouldn’t be expected to pay your contribution as well.

I don't think it's realistic to expect the taxpayer to provide free universal childcare - it is already heavily subsidised. I do support cracking down on the extra charges, though. I also don't understand why childcare costs aren't tax deductible - they should be imo.

Yes, apologies. I tried to change my title to England. I believe the system across the UK should be universal free childcare and it really stinks that those in wales/ni/Scotland it costs even more than England.

I do understand this thinking and thank you for taking the time to respond. Yes, it is my choice. But I also see a huge problem with the falling birth-rate and how we are going to provide for an aging population.

I feel very said that the majority of my friends who are highly educated with phds etc, decided not to have children. Because really, it never has made sense from a financial viewpoint. But people who have £100k debt after education will decide not to risk having a family. Whereas to those with less education, they can have children younger and it's a less of a gamble.

I think you should pay for children you choose to have and childcare workers should be paid a proper wage and receive high quality training.

£16 a day for consumables is ridiculous though-£6 would be more accurate.

My consumables are £22 per day. And you know, i'd love to get even this back if my child is off sick or we are on holiday. That would be something at least. I even pay for bank holidays (as they still have yo pay their staff). It is wrong.

I'm a childminder and charge nothing like that. There are cheaper childcare options and parents should shop around. Consumables are optional and parents should vote with their feet.

It is broken - you're right. I find it baffling that most parents have 30 'free' hours and yet they're still paying more to the nursery each month than the cost of their mortgages, while most of the staff are on minimum wage and the care the DC receive is hardly great with a ratio of 1:8. It just doesn't compute. There are clearly people getting rich somewhere along the line.

When we had two in full time nursery a few years ago, it cost us £50k a year.

Yes, the system is broken.

Yes, I cant get a childminder locally. I've looked and looked. My child's nursery is a mile away. We are rural and so i guess this is part of the problem as we can't afford a car to go elsewhere after walking to school.

I agree OP. Slightly depressingly my daughter turned 3 and we finally got the subsidised hours just as every child was going to get it from 9 months. We spent £1200pcm for literally years for 4 days a week childcare. They loved nursery thank god!
Im not sure what the solution is. Currently we all expect the government to subsidise absolutely everything- childcare, social care, farmers, cost of living etc. given the ration of tax payers etc it’s just not working. It’s a symptom of a failing system

Thank you. I have no idea what the solution is. If I was given the option to let my youngest start school now (age 2.5), i'd be over-joyed. The school has gone for 60 per year, to 40 because of the birth rate. So I wish it was an option.