AIBU to just let my DD crack on?

[ASundayWellSpent]

I'm struggling with DD11 (nearly 12) so much at the moment and today I just want to give up. She has been lovingly and caringly brought up her whole life, stable childhood with both parents supportive, younger sister who is a breeze and idolises her sister, close grandparents, great school with small class sizes. Ironically I work with children including teens and am closely linked to wellbeing, but I guess its different when it is your own and in the home environment. She has gone through a few different phases of being more difficult/ needing more support, strategies etc, notably at 2, 8 and now again at 11. She was screened as part of a research study when she was 10 for any underlying needs / emotional wellbeing etc and it showed slightly high indicators for anxiety but nothing more. She visited a psychologist for a few sessions last summer (and will be going again starting next week) and they discussed her worries and preocupations with friendship groups but the feedback was generally very positive and no further sessions were recommended at that time. I still have my suspisions that she might be neurodiverse and is masking/ high-functioning due to the high levels of support from home and school.

For the past year since she started Secondary we just seem to be in a constant cycle of her pushing boundaries, making poor choices and putting her attention/ focus / energy into superficial things and not engaging with what is important. She is becoming increasingly defiant and argumentative (feels like every 5 minutes), mainly with me but also with father, sister and even on occasion grandparents. I have explained til I am blue in the face that I would like nothing better than to give her more freedom and let her make her own choices but everytime she is given the opportunity poor choices are made and I have to go back to scaffolding and support which I believe she resents.

After a particularly difficult week I am at my wits end. I have just spent half an hour journalling writing "do what you want, just leave me alone" again and again as it is the only way I can see out right now through my stress fog.

Would it be so terrible for me to make good on the list that I have just written and let natural consequences have their effect, in an attempt to protect my mental health and have at least a break in the constant arguing?

List: Wear what you want, use your computer when you want, wash when you want, leave your stuff where you want, tidy your room when you want, empty your bathrooom bin when you want, study when you want, manage your school stuff however you want, go to sports when you want, give up piano when you want, opt out of family outings when you want, eat whatever/ whenever you want, manage your hygiene how you want, just please give me a break and make the arguing stop before I have a break down?

Her only problem really is her mother?

Why the hell is she seeing a psychologist?? Talk about leading a horse to water

Pick some battles.
Important stuff - health things, so hygiene, sleep and food.
Then screen time
Then School.
Some stuff can be left - tidy rooms, hobbies etc
Have to say I disagree with it being entirely ‘normal’.
It feels extreme for age.

I agree with other posters about picking your battles. I'd let her handle a lot of these (presumably not doing her homework or wearing incorrect uniform will be dealt with at school), but family meals and to some extent family outings (depending on the situation) are non negotiable.

leave your stuff where you want
No, but not worth nagging about. Have a big box or trug in a corner downstairs and dump all her random stuff in there.

This is a good one that I have tried. One round of rounding things up in the evening, and they go in the 'backlog' box. If stuff is left around after that, then it will be collected in the next day's backlog. The box needs to be quite large such as a laundry bin, mine was kept out of the way in the garage.
"Where is my...?" is answered by "Last I saw it, it was in the backlog box."
You don't have to ask about sorting out the backlog box unless you have to. Things get harder to find, then she decides life would be easier if she did.
Consider (if this system works) if anything is needed such as extra bookcases or a very clear area for the schoolbag, PE kit, glasses, swim stuff etc for the bedroom where those could be replaced on autopilot.

Sending a big hug OP.
Perhaps you could rank that list of things in order of what is most important to you and the things that matter least: yes, let her crack on.
So maybe hygiene is very important and you want to keep on top of with her because if her hygiene drops school aged kids can be cruel which would be awful for her and lead to more issues for you.
But dropping piano? I mean, if she doesn't want to do it anymore, let her walk away. She's far more likely to come back to it later if you don't make it a big deal now. And use that monthly fee that is saved to do something nice for yourself! ❤️

Hi OP. This is a tricky age. I think you could definitely let her make her own choices on many of these issues. If she doesn't want to go to piano lessons that seems fair enough. I have always had a policy that bedrooms belong to the occupant and I don't get involved in how they are kept. I occasionally request crockery etc to be surrendered but if you don't put your clothes in the wash they won't be washed. Could you tie a few things to routines so you don't have to keep asking her to do things? For example, expect uniform to be in a wash basket before you eat dinner on a Friday/expect a shower to happen before screen time?

My DD14 can be argumentative and I hate a row so I do consider this before I ask her to do anything in terms of whether it is essential right now. I try to be particularly mindful of this after school as she has been doing what she's told all day and benefits from some time to decompress.

When your post said she was making bad choices I will admit to expecting truancy/drugs/inappropriate online activity/ hanging out in the streets until all hours so was relieved that this isn't the case.

I think it is reasonable to have a time when screens go away and to shower regularly, to attend school and engage with homework (although school provide sanctions for that so let them) and there will be some family occasions where she will need to attend.

Is it possible that she might just need to feel like she has some more autonomy? I do recall my DSD making a huge fuss at 11 about not wanting to come swimming with the rest of the family and we agreed that was fine. She stayed home and was a bit bored. This never happened again. Sometimes you need to let them make low stakes 'wrong' choices. Even asking if they plan to shower before or after dinner can be interpreted as a better approach than a direct order at this tricky age.

If you suspect ND, then you're right. Mums always always know, even if it takes time to see it clearly.

Therefore, you have to reduce 'demands'. So pick a few out the list that can absolutely go. Too many demands will cause huge problems with ND teens. They simply can't manage it and will resist.

I would forget family outings. Ask her nicely when you have the strength and feel less triggered ( I understand why you're overwhelmed). Say, do you want to give up piano, are you sure? Then let it go. Let her drop it. Do you want to do less family engagements? Then simply let her miss it. The showering; ask what she can cope with. Can she do every other day. Agree you won't nag her if she can do that. Get some body wipes.

Collaboration works best than dictating with teens who are ND.

Get a bin with a lid and scented bags so you don't have to see or deal with it so often.

Involve her in agreeing what demands can go and how together you can help each other meet both your needs.

Im glad someone else picked up on the superficial things. Seems key.

List: Wear what you want, use your computer when you want, wash when you want, leave your stuff where you want, tidy your room when you want, empty your bathrooom bin when you want, study when you want, manage your school stuff however you want, go to sports when you want, give up piano when you want, opt out of family outings when you want, eat whatever/ whenever you want, manage your hygiene how you want,

Choose the most important. For me that was going to school and hygiene and they had to do their chores unless they were ill.

If they weren't feeling well or having a difficult period, I'd give them supportive care and call them in sick. Grades stayed up.

Everybody contributes to the household through chores.

Now mine had a quirk that they liked to sleep in their clothes, not their pjs. So they'd shower and pick their clothes for the next day and sleep like that. They slept well, so ok.

They did their homework after school and that and chores, that was free time. They really liked their extracurriculars, so no problem there. If they hadn't, I would have let them quit and try something else if they wanted.

I think you're being a bit rigid and she's feeling that and pushing back. She's at that age and it's not going to get better for a while. Things like sports and piano and family outings at 11, time to let her opt in to whether she wants to continue or go. I'd let her leave her room how she wants, just have a no food in the bedroom rule and teach her to do laundry.

She sounds normal for her age.

I have come to see that toddlers and teens have many things in common.
They are in a similar part of life - with a huge natural urge for new independence... and still the limitations of age and ability.

Really good (cross-over) advice given to me during a difficult toddler-wrangling period here was 'to say 'yes' whenever at all reasonable... because there are already so many essential 'no's. A few days of this made a big difference to us both.

For your pre-teen daughter:
Agree to what you can (washing herself /keeping her own space how she wants it/wearing her foolish choice of clothes will soon be completely her business anyway).

Pick things you cannot compromise on and stay quietly firm on those. (What would be dangerous - what would really effect those around her etc.)

Pick things you can guide her on (hobbies/working on things) and praise and encourage her/make space and time for her but also let her make her own choices.

Pick something unimportant to be unreasonable about and try to focus struggles for independence on that. (School pick school uniform and make a huge fuss about that. It offers safe opportunity for huge rebellion by the teen.)

So many genuine and helpful replies but OP has not come back. Let's hope she takes the good advice here on board

Hi everyone, I didn't come back earlier because I was at work. Thank you so much to everyone who took time out of their day to answer this thread, whether that be with support, strategies or sympathy! Or to say I am her only problem - everyone is entitled to their opinion and variety is the spice of life I guess!

Just to answer a few queries/ questions:
Why does she have to empty her own bin? She has her own bathroom and since having started her periods she has been asked that, at the end of her period, she wrap up the small bin and put it with the rest to be thrown out that day - I didn't think this was a big ask and a learning part of hygiene

Why has she seen a psychologist? It was included as the end of the study that she participated in through her school. She asked to visit her again this summer as she said she found it useful to order her thoughts and get someone elses point of view

What do I mean regarding hygiene? Mainly swinging between wanting showers and hairwashes twice a day, to not even wanting to clean her teeth for a few days in a row... seems I need to let this one play itself out with natural consequences.

What do I mean by wear what she wants? As part of the sport that she plays there is a very... erm... skimpy outfit style that she wants to wear all of the time, outside the activity too. Need to give this another think as I would love to be on the "what does it matter" camp, but she is still 11 and I don't think she's prepared to deal with the kind of attention that outfit will get in a non-sport context such as meeting up with her friends. But her arguments are all "but you let me wear it at sport event"...

Why does she have to do piano? She doesn't, she asked for it. This is her fourth year playing, she asked for a instrument for home which she got, but over the last three months she has been complaining about lessons (pre-paid for), not practising and now saying she doesn't want to sit the exam in two weeks.

Why does she do sport? She asked for it and has been doing really well at it for two years. She wants to go to the training / matches, or has a tantrum about not wanting to go depending on each and every day, I never know which way it is going to go so this one isn't quite as simple as let her stop because often she really wants to go, has a group of friends there, goes to socials etc. If she misses too many trainings she will be taken off the team by the coach so maybe, again, that is the natural consequence...

School - I have been trying to offer support and, if she doesnt accept, keeping out of it. I guess this has been playing its course the most as she is one lighter consequence off accumulating a detention so... This will really upset her and I would love to help her to avoid it, but I guess it is the consequence

What do I mean by her sister being a breeze? I meant in relation to her. DD2 is younger and idolises her sister meaning she doesn't argue back to her, lets herself be picked up or dropped depending on her sisters mood, is always happy to spend time with her/ train with her etc. There is only a one way conflict between them which is DD1 being mean/ dismissive / arguing and DD2 just coming away sad wishing her sister was nice to her.

I think that was most of the questions answered. Its true that I have run a "tight ship" for years, but it was generally in a collaborative way and both sides were OK with it, I feel like I gave her a good mix of responsibilities, rewards and expectations but I guess now she is changing I need to change with the times too. I can't deny I feel sad, but for now I am going to action as many of these good ideas and suggestions into a plan going forward, and hopefully we will reduce the arguments and micro-managing at least! Will come back with results...

piano...over the last three months she has been complaining about lessons (pre-paid for), not practising and now saying she doesn't want to sit the exam in two weeks.

Could this be nerves/anxiety about the exam? If it's happening in 2 weeks and already booked, paid for etc I would be tempted to say go and give it a shot, but she can drop piano if she wants to after the exam or have a discussion about continuing with/without exams, if it is making a hobby feel like too much pressure.

For the bathroom bin, personally I don't empty mine specifically after a period, is it possible this makes her feel self conscious like everyone knows if she's emptying her bin it means she's just finished her period? I just empty my bathroom bins about once a week or if they are full before that. This might feel less self conscious for her.

Although I'm suggesting potential stumbling blocks and suggested solutions for those blocks here, the Ross Greene stuff is worth looking at as it helps you get to the bottom of what the stumbling block is for her.

If the sport outfit is something like a leotard, I would be tempted to say not to wear it generally outside of the house as those things tend to be made of fairly thin material which could easily get worn and snag on things meaning it would need replacing. And you could point out that you let her wear a swimming costume to the beach or swimming pool and would in a swimming competition, but not to hang around at the shops with her friends (or whatever teenagers do these days). So she will be aware that outfits can have different contexts and so she might be trying to do this as a sort of rebellion thing.

Sometimes I think parents concentrate on the wrong things. Go to school. Eat this. Learn because you need to because I won't support you when you're an adult, you'll have to stand on your own feet.

Does ig matter what their bedroom is like. You're not sleeping there. They don't wash...give it a week or so when their friends or rather the kids that ain't, notice.

Yes reinforced time in . But don't go to bed...it's you who is tired tomorrow...don't whine at me.

This is why picking your battles is so important, if you’re on at them all the time for everything it just becomes noise that they ignore.

Pick the one or two things that you feel are deal breakers and let the other stuff go.

The bin thing is weird