Page 4 | To think that the next election will be Reform v Greens and we need hard hats to survive?

Noras · 2026-05-18T07:31:41+00:00

I just want a stable country and would take any political party with middle of the ground policies. I wish that KS had been left to get on with things. I did not like some policies eg NI increases and additional taxes on rental income but so be it. As long as the economy could be stable and grow we can overcome that. Instead we have a party that had a large majority now in Civil War. KS can only give away but not reduce spending and as a consequence, taxes have risen hugely eg via fiscal drag or on non working (investment) income tax . I want to see a government with a clear plan to increase productivity and make us more successful as a country. instead Reform and Greens offer none of that but this is our future, shudder!

1dayatatime · 20/05/2026 19:39

MadderthanMorris · 20/05/2026 18:21

I actually think the OP's desire for centrist stability and business as usual is a deep expression of denial, and won't be satisfied by any party because it simply contradicts the facts of our historical moment.

Capitalism is failing, all over the world. It is creating obscene levels of inequality which not only hold back the living standards of many, but place ridiculous amounts of economic power - and by extension political power - in the hands of a very few. It is thus entering a stage in which it becomes directly contrary to the demands of democracy.

Automation and AI are rendering human labour obsolete, but we have no plan in place, or even the philosophical basis for one, to deal with what life and society will mean when that's the case. People still sound off about the welfare bill etc. as though full employment is a valid and reasonable goal if individuals only had the work ethic.

Climate change gallops on apace and most countries are falling woefully short of the structural changes they need to make to address it. We're going to have to get used to having less, using less, travelling less. But our metrics of societal "success" are still based on GDP growth so any government that faces up to this reality will automatically be seen as a failure.

People aren't rejecting centrism just because they're bored and want something a bit more fun. They're rejecting it because it no longer works. It's stopped improving most people's lives and it doesn't contain the answers to the challenges we currently face. That shouldn't be so shocking - human society goes through such crises every so often, like when feudalism didn't contain the answers to the challenges posed by industrialisation.

We should be vigorously proposing, scrutinizing and debating alternatives (not least because in the absence of doing so, lazy and dishonest ones will fill the vacuum to serve the interests of the likes of Farage, at everyone else's expense), not pretending we can carry on in a "stable" social and economic order that is patently anything but.

I agree that capitalism has many serious flaws, but what would you replace it with? Socialism doesn't work and communism certainly didn't work.

Greenwitchart · 20/05/2026 22:11

1dayatatime · 20/05/2026 19:39

I agree that capitalism has many serious flaws, but what would you replace it with? Socialism doesn't work and communism certainly didn't work.

Show quote history

Yet we have Scandinavian countries who manage to combine prioritising their population's well being and having strong health and social care support while also promoting business and enterprise. Or countries like Spain who are trying different approaches.

The problem with countries like the UK and the US for example is the choice to take capitalism to the extreme to the point where only a few at the top hoard resources while everyone else struggles. It is the triumph of greed and it destroys the social fabric and makes people miserable, angry and divided.

Greenwitchart · 20/05/2026 22:15

Gillydoller · 18/05/2026 09:29

Reform are putting themselves forward as the party for the working people. That used to be Labour they very much now seem to be the party for benefit claimants, not workers.

Only a fool would think that a millionaire grifter like Farage could ever lead a party for 'working people'.

Farage would remove workers rights, privatise the NHS (do you really want to go bankrupt because you need medical care like it happens in the US or die because you can't afford to pay for treatment?) and condemn anyone who lose their job after redundancy or illness to destitution by cutting benefits.

The only people that Farage cares about is himself (just ask the people of Clacton...) and his rich mates/donors.

MadderthanMorris · 20/05/2026 22:48

Greenwitchart · 20/05/2026 22:11

Yet we have Scandinavian countries who manage to combine prioritising their population's well being and having strong health and social care support while also promoting business and enterprise. Or countries like Spain who are trying different approaches.

The problem with countries like the UK and the US for example is the choice to take capitalism to the extreme to the point where only a few at the top hoard resources while everyone else struggles. It is the triumph of greed and it destroys the social fabric and makes people miserable, angry and divided.

Show quote history

That's one answer. The Scandinavian countries are fundamentally capitalist but they do show that capitalism can take a hell of a lot more governmental control, taxation and redistribution than Anglo-American assumptions pretend, and end up stronger for it in terms of the society it serves.

Outside of that, I don't think it's a question of choosing from a pre-defined set of options like "socialism" or "communism", so much as examining the sacred cows of our own economic orthodoxy, and exploring what might happen if we let go of them. Such as -

The idea that everyone needs to work 40 hours a week.
The idea that society will collapse if it supports those who don't.
The idea that we live in a meritocracy where your effort and ingenuity is clearly reflected in your reward.
The idea that private property ownership, and its particular distribution at this moment in history, is an absolute and unassailable right.
The idea that freedom and political power can be equal even when wealth is outrageously unequal.
The idea that "freedom" within a capitalist money-based system is some kind of pure libertarian starting point, when the system itself actually requires all kinds of state and military enforcement.
The idea that corporations and very powerful individuals must be allowed to amass obscene wealth from artificial profits by letting society pay for the cost of negative externalities (such as climate and environmental destruction).

Original poster

Noras · 21/05/2026 07:02

MadderthanMorris · 20/05/2026 22:48

That's one answer. The Scandinavian countries are fundamentally capitalist but they do show that capitalism can take a hell of a lot more governmental control, taxation and redistribution than Anglo-American assumptions pretend, and end up stronger for it in terms of the society it serves.

Outside of that, I don't think it's a question of choosing from a pre-defined set of options like "socialism" or "communism", so much as examining the sacred cows of our own economic orthodoxy, and exploring what might happen if we let go of them. Such as -

The idea that everyone needs to work 40 hours a week.
The idea that society will collapse if it supports those who don't.
The idea that we live in a meritocracy where your effort and ingenuity is clearly reflected in your reward.
The idea that private property ownership, and its particular distribution at this moment in history, is an absolute and unassailable right.
The idea that freedom and political power can be equal even when wealth is outrageously unequal.
The idea that "freedom" within a capitalist money-based system is some kind of pure libertarian starting point, when the system itself actually requires all kinds of state and military enforcement.
The idea that corporations and very powerful individuals must be allowed to amass obscene wealth from artificial profits by letting society pay for the cost of negative externalities (such as climate and environmental destruction).

Edited

Show quote history

You do realise that Norway built up massive sovereign wealth from oil during the 1980s onwards which the UK does not have?

OP posts: