Why do we put animals out of their misery but let humans suffer?

[Freshton]

A relative is currently dying a slow and horrible death from terminal cancer. In palliative phase and last few days now as can't swallow or take any liquids.

It's truly opened my eyes. I had no idea how medieval things were still when it comes to death. I've been truly horrified at what people are expected to endure in their final weeks and what their relatives have to witness.

I can't understand why we put animals to sleep to spare them suffering but humans still have to deal with this slow and undignified end.

I've never been much in favour of assisted dying as not had to think about it but after seeing what I've seen, I really hope something can change. I'll be haunted for the rest of my life by what I've seen in last few weeks.

I am heavily involved in the strategic delivery of services within a niche area of cancer care, and much of that work is charity funded. The problem is that charity funding and taxpayer funding are fundamentally different. A charity’s first responsibility is ultimately its own survival, and in difficult financial periods — like now — that means frontline services are often reduced or withdrawn in order to protect the organisation itself.

The danger of relying on charitable funding for essential clinical services is that it allows commissioners and government to step back from adequately funding those services directly. Over time, systems begin to depend on charities to fill gaps that should never have existed in the first place. We are seeing the consequences of that now: charities are tightening their belts, scaling back services that the government has relied upon for years without properly funding, and patients are left facing the shortfall.

Hospices are perhaps the clearest example of this. It is shameful that such fundamental end-of-life care remains so dependent on charitable fundraising rather than secure public funding.

Until we have properly government-funded palliative and hospice services that can guarantee reliability, equity, and genuine choice, I do not believe assisted dying should be introduced.

These predictions aren't 100% accurate. By definition, a predicted life expectancy of six months is uncertain, because it means a doctor definitively thinks you are too well right now to die, thus why they're giving you six months, not six weeks. The six months is being suggested because they expect based on the average progression of your condition, that you will deteriorate and be unwell enough to die within six.

It's educated guesswork. Some people die much sooner than that. Some people... don't. Esther Rantzen thought she was going to die by June 2023. She's still with us.

In my own personal experience, I was a carer for a lady who was hospitalised with an acute illness. She was discharged as end of life.

After a year or so, the staff caring for her suggested that her GP reassess the hospital doctors' conclusion, please. She's not exactly mouldering away, either. Since then, her physical health and mobility has improved and she likes going to gigs. It's now been more than two years since that hospital discharge.

Love this.

I live in Canada and honestly we rarely hear anything about it, and if we do it's positive. Only on MN is it a horror show!

I spent time on a ward with old men dying it was awful and at least two went whilst I was there they died on a full ward of mixed patients some with dementia no one was by their side and their relatives came in after ie no one to support them.at all.

Luckily I was there my Df and I was able to get him a side room alone when the time came , sponged his mouth and helped as much as I could he had been begging for death weeks before. The whole exercise was heartbreaking and yes my cat will get better treatment.
Like anything else some nurses were amazing and some were utterly desensitized and shouldn't be allowed near patients at all.
It was traumatic all around and he had a terminal illness not cancer...
A friend had cancer and had it cut out , she said the worst part was dying inn the UK a slow and painful death.
The problem is unless you have these experiences you don't know how beyond barbaric it is

Had my Df illness not been terminal he couldn't cope with his body and breathing he was was bed bound by the end

I don’t think my DF would have asked to end his life when he had a short prognosis as he really didn’t want to leave us. Luckily, at the end, the A&E doctor was very kind and gave him legally prescribed drugs which helped him have a pain free and settled end.

The comparison between my dog’s last day and my dad and grandmother’s last days is stark.

I knew it was time to have my old boy put to sleep, he was in pain and miserable, we’d exhausted all the options the vet had to offer and it was awful watching him struggle. Me and my ex-husband put our lovely fella in the car, took him to his favourite park for a mooch around, bought him a burger and ice cream then went to the vets where he died in my arms.

My dad was on a trolley in A&E for almost 3 days, no privacy or dignity. When he finally got to a ward he was extremely distressed and confused. He died 4 days later, suffocating to death from end stage COPD. This is the man who had berated me the previous week for not checking my tyre pressure that month! He’d been lucid and his usual self at that point. My mum had to watch her husband of 56 years die, gasping for air.

My nan had a fall resulting in a bleed on the brain. She seemed to be making a good recovery, sat up in bed talking, complaining about missing her beloved sport on tv. The care she received was poor, she wasn’t given her levothyroxine which was vital as she didn’t have a thyroid gland, she was put in incontinence pants despite being fully capable of using the toilet at home, the food was dreadful and unsuitable for her dietary needs. However she was doing well and we thought she’d be home reasonably quickly.

Then the call came, another bleed and this one was unrecoverable. We were told a couple of days at most. Unfortunately Nan clung to life for another 12 days, no food or water, unable to move, often left on a soiled pad for hours where she developed bed sores, tears streaming down her face.

You can’t tell me that euthanasia wouldn’t have been kinder for them both.

I 100% disagree with you. Drugs and care do not exist that can totally eradicate the pain and trauma some face when given a terminal diagnosis. This is not about how it's funded. It simply doesn't exist and never will.

So I ask you again - why do you get to choose how I die?

I've never heard anything negative about assisted dying in any country. There will always be the selfish types who scour the world to find the exception that proves their rule. Usually one example that in their mind justifies their stance whilst totally disregarding the hundreds or thousands of safe and appropriate outcomes.

I really can’t see why it’s anyone else’s damn business how my life ends. And I would 100% be off to Switzerland if I became so ill that the pain was too much.

I am fortunate I have the 10k or so it costs, what happens to the poor souls who can’t afford it.

I’ve worked in Hospices for 20 yrs and have a reasonable insight into death and dying . In numerous instances I have been taught by patients that their life has been worth living, despite being in enormous pain and discomfort. A life that I , personally thought was not worth continuing. So I am not in favour of assisted dying- there are numerous ways of doing this and those that say they will rarely do.
There is a problem with this country wanting to sanitise death and put it into its box . Death is an aspect of life and like life itself can be rather unpredictable, uncertain, uncomfortable and messy. We need to know this

'Death is an aspect of life and like life itself can be rather unpredictable, uncertain, uncomfortable and messy. We need to know this'

This.

We don't put people to sleep as people aren't pets.

Death is distressing and never convenient. We all need to step up, accept that, do what we can to make sure hcps are doing what they can to ease suffering and show some resilience. Yes we'd all like to go quickly in our sleep but sadly it rarely works out like that.

It’s so hard to ‘police’ though- I always say in the days coming up to my dad dying he had some dark dark days and for two days in a row he said ‘this isn’t living, I wish god would just take me’- then the day before he went into a two day coma and then died, they upped more of his morphine and was sitting up and said ‘I didn’t realise how bad I was before yesterday, but today feels like a blessing.’

He appreciated the flowers in the window, he was talking a bit, held our hands a bit etc etc, not bounced back but you could tell he was content and he was telling us he was going to fight on, life was for living and you didn’t just want to suddenly go etc etc. On that day had anyone told him death was coming or he had any options he would have been horrified.

I had so many friends who said similar, some w parents with dementia who had good days when people thought they were gone, and I have nurse relatives that have said there’s marked improvements then dips in patients then up again.

Yes. I watched my mum suffer and wouldn’t wish it on anyone. Horrific. The sooner we get assisted dying passed the better.

Pets aren’t human, they are property and don’t need to consent to their death. You can’t compare the 2.

You can end your life whenever you choose

@AmberTigerEyes

How can you end your life if you are bedridden in hospital? Or bedridden at home?
Also if someone commits suicidal, what about the consequences for those who find them?

Sorry about your mum .

Death is often unpleasant though sadly. Hcps should do their job properly and make sure patients are medicated effectively. If they can't take oral meds than a syringe driver should always be used to keep people comfortable.

Let's be realistic.

There will never be "properly government-funded palliative and hospice services that can guarantee reliability, equity, and genuine choice," never. And there is no mass of voters requesting this/voting on this. The fundraising based services will shrink even further.

What now? Should people even in the most clearcut cases be forced to suffer and block the limited resources doing so?

But why should it be?

Giving birth is unpredictable, uncertain, uncomfortable and messy - and we are heavily using the human kind's knowledge to make it less so - screening the most uncertain cases, CS, pain relief.

Why is this different?

I agree. I think there's quire a few people who object to AD because they don't know much about it and they haven't had the experience of a loved one going through a long degenerative illness like dementia.

I've worked in care homes where I'm very sure many of the people there would chose AD if it was an option. Not because the care is terrible, although it often is especially if you can't afford to go into one of the better places, but because the only people who benefit from the current system are the owners of the care homes.

Most people don't have the option of travelling to end their life somewhere else. Going to Dignitas costs around £15k. It should be a right afforded to everyone.

I find the people who want to take the choice away from terminally ill people utterly abhorrent. There's a reason why societies that are acknowledged as the most civilised already permit this. We shouldn't let other people dictate anyone's manner of death but their own.

I don't think the comparisons with other animals helps - there are a lot of things we do with other animals that would be horrifying if we did it with people.

I'm open to the concept, though strongly believe that it is something that should only be brought up by the patient. I don't think medical professionals or any other professionals should be starting that conversation - I view that as a breach of trust.

I also agree with others that assisted suicide has been romanticised. Yes, it likely means death will be sooner, but it doesn't automatically mean it's going to be dignified, pain free, and without difficulties for the dying or those in attendance.

I've been at death vigils, I've cared for the dying, I've seen peaceful ones and very difficult ones, I've been there for the terminal rallies that can give people false hope and the person with confusing hallucinations and little objective quality of life.

I was also born disabled and had people discuss it was better for me to die for as long as I can remember. Just as many people on here and elsewhere say you can't really know until you've been with someone dying a difficult death, I don't think those who've never had those meant to care for you discuss your death as a blessing repeatedly can know what it's like to be able to dismiss the concerns that people can be convinced that dying is the best course of action even if they want to live. I don't think it would automatically come out in the vetting process, I'm not sure - much like death - that it's something that could be entirely prevented with or without these laws.

If someone is suffering and is able to document their wishes for their death ahead of time then whats the issue?

Because consent is only consent if it can be withdrawn.

There have been documented cases of people who'd been granted assisted suicide fighting back against when it came time and being held down. That was not the dignified chosen death anyone would want. That was traumatic to the patient and anyone around to watch. Even with the argument that they had dementia and didn't understand, I struggle to see that as consent.

Society has moved to drawing out the process of dying too much through treating every little thing, and that does need to be resolved - as others have said, there needs to be more security for medical professionals to not provide on-going care where that's been agreed and social understanding for families not to push for treatments that only prolong the inevitable.

Consent to a professionally administered overdose needs the safeguard of the person's consent at the time it's happening.

However in this case it makes no real difference. The key point is the same. People are not “free to commit suicide if they wish”. If they try and are unsuccessful they will be forcibly prevented from trying again.

Not always, IME not often and it takes more than just trying.

No one can 'commit' suicide anymore, if someone fails, they aren't charged with a crime, it's treated as a medical issue where the treatment can involve being detained. That why someone can detained under the Mental Health Act - not because it's illegal - and many who've used and supported people with those services know that just being suicidal or attempting even repeatedly isn't often enough to get sectioned.

I've had suicidal ideation since I was 9, I'm fairly open on it, I've previously taken myself to hospital because of it. I was held in a room by myself for a few hours, had a nurse speak to me for about 5 minutes during that time which I remember fondly, and I was essentially held until someone could arrive to take me home. I've never been sectioned. I've checked my medical records, and that event isn't on there at least where I can see. I've known more than a few that've tried, I've had someone try in front of me, went to the hospital, was open about the situation - none of them have ever been sectioned. That care is often given to family and friends if they're willing to do so.

Society has shifted since and we're in the midst of social debates on when suicidal desires go from always a medical issue to sometimes a medical issue and sometimes a normal response. Society has moved around from the ideal that it should always be prevent and treated to the reality that much of the time, it isn't, to whether in some situations those desires being normal should mean they get medical assistance to do so. How and if that's going to resolve over time is up in the air.

Who do you propose should do the euthanizing?

I live in Canada and honestly we rarely hear anything about it, and if we do it's positive. Only on MN is it a horror show!

So you didn't hear about Christine Gauthier, the veteran who was offered MAID by her case worker because she was struggling to get a wheelchair lift installed?

Or Roger Foley who took recordings and sued over the repeated attempts at coercion by hospital staff including threats to refuse to give him further care for his disabilities if he did not choose MAID and his documentation of others with similar disabilities who'd suffered the same who spoke to the Canadian Parliament?

Or The Quebec College of Physicians who discussed MAID for infants up to one for their disabilities?

Or the over thousand people who received MAID for isolation and loneliness?

Or the hundreds who received MAID for seeking, but not getting palliative care and/or disability services, including those where the issue was they could not afford their long term care?

All of these and more have been reported in Canadian news and much of it before the Canadian Parliament, with the Prime Minister getting involved in some of them. That it's not being heard is concerning. I'm open to assisted suicide, but we need to learn from these issues to build better systems, not pretend it's only positive.

My Aunt and Uncle in Canada had a neighbour whose wife passed away, secondary to dementia. He was also terminally ill with advanced cancer, in terrible pain and had been given less than a year to live. He organised MAID (medically assisted in death) immediately after her death. My relatives and a few of his close friends were present at the end, which was in his own bed at home.

They said it was very calm and peaceful and he was 100% content with his decision. Both also said it was a very positive decision and brought them peace, knowing it would be an option for them. I can't see any of this being a negative thing.