Andy Burnham - how can this be allowed?

[Boopybop]

I know that there is a long way to go over the coming weeks, with by-elections and leadership challenges. But fundamentally - how can it be right that a man who was not even a candidate in the General Election, was therefore not voted for in the General Election - become Prime Minister? Effectively, the people of Makerfield are selecting the country’s new Prime Minister (as it is pretty obvious that AB would win a leadership contest).

This feels wholly undemocratic in every way.

AIBU - Andy Burnham has every right to become PM

AINBU - it is not right that a by-election in Makerfield can determine who the next Prime Minister will be

Did you say the same about Theresa, Boris, Liz, or Rishi?

This stuff really should be taught in schools. It's shocking that so many people don't understand how our system of government works.

@FulsomSparrow I could have written this.

I voted Labour in the last election because our conservative mp was a drunk and a joke. i liked the labour candidate and they have proven to be excellent. but would i vote labour again after this? no I wont 100% will not.

all those saying "oh but reform will never get a majority and form the govt" are most likely the same numpties who said "oh but the uk will never vote for brexit" and then were shocked when they did.

there are so many people on mumsnet who have no idea what is happening out there and how many older people ex labour voters who actually bother to go out and vote will be voting reform. because quite frankly they are sick and tired of the shenanigans of the labour and conservative parties.

they arent sold on the ideology. they arent all rascist, sexist, homophobic, transgender haters. they are just normal people who look at this shit show and think how on earth can I make it stop.

politics reflect life. too many people not willing to stick at anything that want instant gratification that think if its not exciting then it must be shit.

they dont value steadiness, thoughtfulness and its all shortermism. why are 30 second tiktoks so popular do we think?

at some point someone and I had hoped it would be starmer has to say enough of this shit. get behind me as leader or get out of the party. he needs to say stuff and stick to it.

as for Burnham well isnt this what was doomsday in previous elections? you elect a moderate labour govt and end up with a left wing one, something the labour party can only force through by stealth? if they elect burnham they will be out of power for decades. but i guess thats short termism for you.

Agree Labour have been costly and expensive. But so will Reform hit the ordinary person.
An NHS voucher who knows for how much. And health insurance required for each member of the family.
Pensions. It is unlikely to be one for most. Bar the destitute.
And many of their policies simply don’t explain the ‘how’. Or how they will meet the cost.Or even if the policy is actually doable.
eg. You cannot deport a person to a country that the country does not accept that they belong to them.
Build manufacturing. Doing what ? With what money ? Detail is horribly lacking.
All over the place.

Just to be sure, this IS sarcasm right? 🤔

Just to be sure, this IS sarcasm right? 🤔

The bond markets react badly to any political instability and right wingers and neo-liberals always manage to blame it on the left.

Burnham may have rowed back his comments about the country being in-hock to the bond markets, but he isn't wrong. The bond markets were instrumental in spreading the damage caused by the subprime markets through poor risk assessment and lack of regulation.

It's time the country stopped planning it's future based on what the markets react to whether that is a chancellor crying or the fact that a possible candidate for Labour Leader hurt their feelings.

Government debt was 35.5% in 2008 before the financial crash. Since then it has gone up exponentially. It was 64.4% in 2010, 80.6% in 2015, 79.6% in 2019 and 94.1% in 2024.

It grew year on year under the Tories - despite more and more cuts in public spending and record tax increases (at least for working people), because cutting public spending stalls growth.

Investment in public services is not a bad idea at all, because improved infrastructure increases production GDP and overarching GDP which means that there may be more borrowing and spending but that borrowing, as a percentage of GDP is reduced!

We know investing in public services works - we saw it between 1997 and 2008 when public services improved but debt remained stable. We know doing it the bond markets way doesn't because we've seen the damage done over the past 14 years!

It's time to do things differently!

In our system at the GE you vote for an MP, not for the PM directly.

Surely you must have noticed already that the conservatives went through several PMs?

At the last election we, the general public, were able to decide if we wanted Starmer as prime minister.

If A B suddenly is voted as their leader by the Labour party, he will automaticallt be the PM, but the public will not have had any choice in the matter.

That's what the OP meant, I think. I agree, it doesn't seem right, even if these mid-stream swops have happened often enough before.

While I am uneasy about the current fashion for replacing the Prime Minister every five minutes, instead of going more deeply into the problems and how to address them, I don't agree with the reason you give. ALL Prime Ministers are chosen by their party out of its MPs, all of who were chosen only by their own constituency voters. You could just as easily say that the Prime Minister shouldn't be chosen just by the voters of Holborn and St Pancras (Starmer) or Richmond, Yorkshire (Sunak), etc. This is our system- Prime Ministers aren't directly elected,

What does worry me is that Makerfield was chosen in a hurry, and isn't a super-safe seat. The previous MP had only a 5,399 majority, and that was in a Labour landslide year. And the runner-up party was Reform. Especially if turnout is low, as is so often the case in by-elections, hings could so easily go so very very wrong and result in another MP for Farage's vile party.

To be fair I think political parties that are broad enough to achieve a parliamentary majority are always going to be at risk of having significant internal differences of opinion. We've seen exactly the same thing play out with the Conservatives. I'd definitely like to see more attempts at consensus but I can't really blame people with a political belief for wanting to act on those beliefs. If you're left of the party and see an opportunity to move the government's agenda more to the left then you're going to take it. Same for the centrists. Call it infighting, call it a battle of ideas, but it is fairly inevitable.

Apparently Maggie Oliver could be the Reform candidate

It’s this against recent local election results. Going to be interesting to see which trend of voting wins.

Is that the same Maggie Oliver who just issued a statement saying she definitely won't stand for election?😀
www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/reform-makerfield-byelection-maggie-oliver-33953313

Of course. But do it behind closed doorS

then his nickname wouldn’t be mr u turn

Ok. If she isn’t going to stand hey ho. But if Labour think they can just manipulate the voters they are wrong. Quite honestly AB could well get a bloody nose and Labour could lose both the Mayorship and the seat.

I hope that Reform offer someone like this. This is a massive turning point in politics. If AB wins and then becomes leader of the LP it shows Reform can be beaten.

If not and Reform wins the two positions they are a shoo in at the next election.

Yes. If KS could just remind himself of his election promises - ‘smash the gangs’, sort the economy, make a fairer society etc (how ironic) literally none of this shenanigans would be occurring. Reform would have no support because their single issue would be dealt with by Labour and all would be hunky dory.

Instead, he ignores and demonises whole swathes of the British public, insists on doing awful undemocratic things not in his manifesto and is generally intent on proving the ‘two tier Kier’ claims right.

This is all totally fixable, I guess the question is why is he refusing to honour his commitments to us?

His current policies seem like a tick list to create division, unrest and unhappiness and to fundamentally change our society. But why?

“The bond markets react badly to any political instability and right wingers and neo-liberals always manage to blame it on the left.”

Bond markets as in our insurance companies, pension funds and financial institutions, the Bank of England? Who are commanding a higher interest rate due to the shenanigans?

So @BloominNora - should I be emailing my pension fund to take all my cash out of UK Government Bond please, now? All too volatile?

We the UK population by proxy hold most of the UK Government bonds. What absolute ridiculous state of affairs. If the price is too high it is because our politicians are too volatile and cannot provide certainty.

What exactly have the economic fundamentals got to do with neo liberalism.

Your ideas are going to bankrupt us all. What exactly is Burnham’s plan regarding bond holders? Tell them to put the interest rate down? Take back control of the Bank of England?
I would really like to know what you think the plans are? As I would like to possibly take out the little I have in my pension thank you very much.

@mummymeister - if people are voting Reform to because they're sick of political shit-shows I think they're going to be bitterly disappointed with what they get.

Leaving aside their beliefs, one thing that worries me is just how massively inexperienced a lot of their candidates are going to be. In the main parties there's a solid base of people who have substantial knowledge and experience in how our political systems and public services work. With Reform, yes there's some people both nationally and locally with experience who are switching allegiance from e.g. the Conservatives but I worry that for many there's no real deep understanding about the economy or health services or education or anything else. Farage is a campaigner and a grifter - I just don't believe he is any way committed to the work that needs to be done in government.

Already seeing this with some of their councillors, just totally unserious people who aren't up to the job.

Shit shows? If we get a Reform government, we'll really know the meaning of the word.

The only way to distract from Burnham's election chance would be if another senior labour policitican stood down. Even then it'd not distract enough.

I'm sure others have said this also.

But this comment shows you really don't understand the process. Don't mean to upset or offend.

You vote for a Party not a person - yes I appreciate that people think they are voting for a person - but they need to understand this is not how it works and consider the party it's manifesto. This is how our system has always been.

I truly believe the Media has a large role to play in your view and that of others - the way they turn it into a personality contest.

You can't just change the rules now because you don't like Andy Burnham. Did you complain when we got Rishi Sunak and Liz Truss?

Not really, the Greens for example have been a party for 50 years and couldn"t organise tea and sandwiches, Reform have been a party for four years and are the new force in UK politics.

He may not even get in as who knows what the local people think. They may want to give the Labour party a bloody nose.

Your comments give the impression you don't understand - especially the title of the thread.

There is a difference between not liking a particularly process and it not being fair.

It is fair and within the rules.

You don't like it - but that does not make it unfair. As your example points out anyone in a similar position to Andy could do what he is doing it is within the rules.

It is those things you mentioned, but global not just UK, Japan dumping UK Gilts for example (they are actually buying more at the moment) would have a big effect on mortgage rates, as will Japan raising interest rates as investor money from Japan will get repatriated from U.S/UK/EU Gilt markets driving up our borrowing costs. All this was going on before the Iran mess.