To think we don’t know how lucky we are under Starmer.

[SevenYellowHammers]

Russia have a mad despot who is responsible for the deaths of Russians and Ukrainians and has caused untold damage on the world’s environment and economy. But he’s still in power.

The USA have a mad despot who’s causing deaths worldwide and has started a war he can’t win causing untold damage to the world’s economy and environment. But he’s still in power.

Israel have a mad despot who is committing genocide and putting Jewish people at risk across the world. But he’s still in power.

In the UK, we have a dull bloke who’s doing his best to stand up to the mad despots while not leading us into war. And we’re all trying to get rid of him.

I know what you’re saying is right - I’m just so disgusted by how this has been done. Even if he turns out to be the best leadership candidate for the next election, it just does so much damage doing it this way and right now. I’ve spoken with friends today in Makerfield who will, of course, vote for Burnham but only to keep Reform out: this won’t be an endorsement of Burnham because of how he’s done this. Even if he wins this by-election, I think this will damage his popularity hugely (which is ironic as we’re told this is one of his major advantages over Starmer!).

Haha, no. 😂 I think Burnham lost those elections to Corbyn and Milliband because of his voting record on the Iraq war and being perceived as a Blairite; it’s funny how he’s now being marketed as the ‘soft-left’ option.

It will be interesting to see what the Greens and Lib Dem’s do.

Edited to add: I think it’s telling that while Burnham voted for the Iraq War and against an investigation into it, Starmer at the time was writing of its illegality and in the anti-war protests. Makes you wonder about Burnham’s approach to these things and what he’d have done regarding the attacks on Iran.

I think the political climate is very depressing currently . Farage and Trump have resulted in a paper thin veneer , where there is no substance / robustness . It doesn’t really matter what they do , they just give good political sound bites and more often than not they can’t follow through with their claims . That doesn’t seem to matter , the message they give seems to be more important .

I want a grown up as PM / not saying that Andy Burnham isn’t .

I want someone with moral fibre and who will govern with a steady hand and make sensible choices .

That won’t always make them popular - they are the parent telling the child that they can’t do something they want to do.

I do think the economic times play a factor , not least caused by Trump , Putin , Farage etc . It is very hard for a lot of people in the UK to make ends meet and they have to forgo a lot of the treats that make life a bit bearable .
I think labour and Keir Starmer haven’t been great in the balancing of being sensible / prudent but also giving people some hope . They have also made some mistakes .

It is easy to talk about what you are going to do , much harder to put it into practice when you are in power.

On the news last night , I listened to one of the political commentators talk about how John Major also faced repeated criticism / leadership challenges during his time as PM . The discussion centred on how much worse it is now , with rolling news coverage and life being so fast with social media etc .

Give me sensibility over charisma for a PM any day . Boris Johnston was a disaster for our country and Farage would be too , probably ten times worse even . I think it is very telling that both also have numerous failed relationships / marriages behind them where their infidelity played a part .

@Sherbs12 it does make you wonder about Burnham’s true loyalty doesn’t it? When Corbyn ran for leadership it was because there was no left candidate, yet Burnham seems to have become the left candidate? Shows how right politics have swung….maybe?

I was very impressed with Burn’s compassion and integrity with the Hillsborough enquiry. I will say that. I’m not sure I’d have given up my seat though! I wonder what deal was offered?

It is the people of makerfield I feel for in all this. And ultimately, I don’t feel the time is right for a leadership election. It seems like after just shoring up a leaky roof, you suddenly decide to build a loft extension!

however, I expect it will all blow over one way or another. I just hope not with Nigel National Front Farage in number 10.

That sounds like Starmer is the man for the job then?

That Starmer, nor anyone else above the reviewing lawyer, was not informed of the case, has been extensively documented.

Well, to be fair, it is well documented that the CPS destroyed their files on Saville in 2010. The subsequent investigation was not conducted until several years later (the report was largely reliant on police records as CPS records were destroyed) - therefore you cannot say definitively that no one else was informed.

• Savile

I think with regards to your first point, it’s probably a bit of both - Burnham as a canny political operator and the times…

And absolutely, I have nothing but respect for his work on Hillsborough and he’s done many great things in Manchester. There is certainly a lot to like and lot of appeal with him - but not the way he’s approached this. I know Simon’s hit some trouble, but locally he seems to be seen as a hardworking MP who does a fair bit for the area. It’s all very questionable, and at best, I think I’m uncomfortable with the Messiah-like status Burnham is being given.

As you say, I just wish he’d bided his time and done this a different way - it doesn’t reflect well on him or the party.

And yep, good to keep perspective - it’s just a pity it feels like this is doing some of Farage’s work for him.

@SevenYellowHammers, whilst I do think Starmer has many admirable qualities and I personally would be happy for him to govern for the next year or so . I don’t necessarily agree that he is the man for the job heading into the next general election . He is very unpopular and I think if he remains long term - then they are handing the keys of No 10 to Farage .

I do agree with a lot of the Labour Party , that it serves no purpose at the current time for all this in fighting . It didn’t do the Conservative Party any good with their constant changing leaders .

The voters have a relatively short memories -they want to forget about all the many reasons why the economy isn’t great . They don’t want lectures about Covid , Truss , Ukraine , Iran etc . They just want to feel hope and to feel better off .

There unfortunately doesn’t seem to be any magic solution . Burnham / Streeting etc may bring change at the top . But at what cost ? All the mud slinging in any leadership competition , will do untold damage but so would a new leader who wasn’t voted in .

My top priorities would be health & education . But I think without boosting the economy and resulting in the standard of living improving , people will not feel satisfied .

Unrealistic to think that in the economic times we are in - through factors outwith our control that any party would have been able to turn it around within less than 2 years . It does seem that the public aren’t interested in how we got to where we are - but instead want someone to say they will improve it . Messaging from labour / Starmer hadn’t been good .

What are the ‘many great things he’s done for Manchester’? Genuine question. I’ve done some googling and can only find one thing that people keep pointing to which is taking the transport network into public ownership and making the buses yellow. There doesn’t seem to be much else mainly because the mayor’s actual powers are fairly limited.

What does seem to be more accurate is that Manchester has been the focus of serious regeneration in the last decade delivered via local councils and the local economy is outperforming the rest of the UK as a result. This has overlapped with Burnham’s time in office as mayor.

Oh and he’s a nice guy who communicates well with locals and they all like him.

Does any of this qualify him for his sainthood status and much hoped for coronation as our next PM?

The CPS file materials were destroyed in 2010, per CPS policy for closed files.

The police files, though, contained the original charging document (MG3 form), confirming that the decision not to proceed was made by the reviewing lawyer and was not escalated up the chain.

What was lost were the contemporaneous records of how the reviewing lawyer made their decision, not that they were the one who made the decision - so they testified to that instead. Their immediate supervisors also testied that the matter hadn't been brought to them.

The other means by which the file could have been drawn to the knowledge of those higher up in the CPS is if it had been added to the Serious Matters list, which is maintained indefinitely and showed the Savile Matters to have never been listed.

So yes - it has been extensively documented that the decision was made at the lowest level only.

If you're a conspiracy nut, or a determined bad-faith smearer, ultimately nothing will satisfy you.

If the original file was produced, it'd be questions of their authenticity based on the data retention/destruction policies not being followed.

Even if the policy was to keep documents indefinitely, you could allege that "Starmer must have been informed, off-record".

You seem to have either misread or misunderstood what I’ve written - I’m in agreement with you that he is no martyr and doesn’t deserve to be PM through this route. Not really sure what your point is? Unless it’s just that you really struggle with balance and nuance.

And your question isn’t genuine, but I’ll let that one slide. It just seems like you wanted to have a bit of a passive aggressive rant.

@TeenagersAngst Is your summary of what ‘seems to be more accurate’ about the region also based on Google? Amazing, if so: to not be able to find records of fact, but to give such clear insight - and with such confidence.

@2026onwardsandup I don’t disagree with you. Starmer doesn’t give off good vibes that’s for sure. His media manager should be replaced.

The British public are incredibly fickle. It’s increasingly hard to know what’s true anymore though.

I think another leadership contest would push us all over the edge. Starmer was at least providing stability in this bonkers world.

The Labour Party have a conference, can’t they wait until then to democratically steer the agenda?

You said he had done many great things for Manchester. I keep hearing similar sentiments but as I’m not from the area I don’t know what they are, which is why I asked you the question.

It is a genuine question. My knowledge of Andy Burnham is from his new Labour days when the critique of him was very different to this new iteration of him as ‘king of the north’.

You accuse me of having a passive aggressive rant and then you have a clearly aggressive rant.

If you can’t articulate the many great things he has done for Manchester, my only option is to use the internet to find out.

I think he is constantly undermined by his own front and back benchers and the unions. They appear to be motivated by self interest and ambition.
However his recent appointment of Harriet Harman to oversee safeguarding of women and children is utterly irresponsible, given her support for paedophiles and as for James - men can be women- Murray as health minister, I wonder if he hasn't realised the Sandy Peggie and Darlington Nurses Tribunals happened. (And the Supreme Court Judgement). Very disappointing given that he is a lawyer.

I responded in that way as you seemed to totally misinterpret what I’d been saying and seem to be making me the authority voice on all things Burnham.

So what great things has he done for Manchester?

I've been saying this for the last 9 or 10 months.

It isn't Starmer that is the issue, it is the fact that his PR or marketing, or media team are so much weaker than the billionaires pulling the strings of so much of the media.

Plenty of good things have been achieved, but "Joe Public" doesn't get told about them often enough or loudly enough.

Nothing to do with conspiracy or even bad-faith - I didn't mention Starmer in my post. It's a fact though that the CPS file was destroyed several years before Alison Levitt's review - something you neglected to mention.

[the reviewing lawyer's] immediate supervisors also testied that the matter hadn't been brought to them

Where might I find a reference to these testimonies? I've just skipped through Alison Levitt's report (admittedly quickly) but didn't spot a reference or mention.

@JustGiveMeReason true, but publicity is easy and cheap with social media.

A bit disappointing is that at last Morgan McSweeney has been sent packing given there's a thought that his saviour was actually effing up the Labour Party, since he went it seems we had a fortnight without scandal. But too late to affect the results of course.

That said, some recent appointments since then seem duff. Gordon Brown reactivates the 'he sold our gold' mob, H Harman the 'she supported paedophiles' mob. Being PM is a full-time job and I don't get the sense Sir Keir appreciates that, it's like you have to anticipate everything. These two are yesterday's people.

Also, re his pre local elections party political broadcast, it's all very well boasting about keeping the UK out of the Iran War but it seems politically artless to make that your main and only theme, especially given that it's a virtue entirely brought about by another country's agency. It's like, if the US hadn't started bombing and threatening Iran, would Starmer have had anything to boast about?

Likewise his crazy appointment of Gordon Brown. Presumably he's finally realised Reeves is hopelessly out of her depth and has brought Brown back to take over the "Macro" side of things rather than sack her (presumably because there's no one else capable of being Chancellor, so they've effectively "split" the job into two, i.e. macro/international and micro/UK)

With Streetings “outing” of Burnham’s return to EU intentions there’s really not point in this lunacy. All that will happen is Manchester will lose their mayor and Makerfield will get a reform MP - which of course, is terrible for all of us. Starmer, on the other hand, for all his faults, was quietly restoring our EU privileges. Cat is out of the bag now and Reform will go in for the kill. Probably the intention all along.

And Matt Goodwin is going to run for Reform…. Well done everyone who stirred up shit for Starmer