To think we don’t know how lucky we are under Starmer.

[SevenYellowHammers]

Russia have a mad despot who is responsible for the deaths of Russians and Ukrainians and has caused untold damage on the world’s environment and economy. But he’s still in power.

The USA have a mad despot who’s causing deaths worldwide and has started a war he can’t win causing untold damage to the world’s economy and environment. But he’s still in power.

Israel have a mad despot who is committing genocide and putting Jewish people at risk across the world. But he’s still in power.

In the UK, we have a dull bloke who’s doing his best to stand up to the mad despots while not leading us into war. And we’re all trying to get rid of him.

So you truly believe that Starmer knew nothing about Jimmy Savile's antics?
And also that the head of the CPS was not aware of any allegations, particularly such high profile ones?
As the very head of the CPS, the buck stops with him, that's the point of being in charge.
As a youngster I knew that there was something very wrong about Jimmy Savile so it clearly doesn't take a genious.
As far as your point about no documented allegations of abuse after 2009, that gave Savile around a year to continue his horrendous crimes. Smashing.
Starmer could have done more and you will never convince me otherwise. Having said that so could a lot of other people including Thatcher.

Someone didn't get their request for Jim'll Fix It...

Is that aimed at me?
Even at 7 years old the man totally creeped me out. I would have been the last kid to apply for that shower of shit programme.

I don't think you know what the CPS (headed by the DPP) is or does.

It does not conduct investigations, nor can it instruct police to open an investigation.

Where a police force has performed an investigation, it can refer their findings/materials to the CPS. The CPS will ultimately make a determination whether or not to prosecute (based on factors like whether the available evidence is sufficient to potentially secure protection).

Even if Starmer had any personal suspicions concerning Saville, he would have no ability to act on them.

In fact, you would be in a better position than the DPP to conduct an investigation, as a member of the public. If the DPP/CPS attempted to do so (or order the police to do so) that would be unlawful (and a constitutional‑level scandal for breaching the core doctrine of police operational independence).

To the extent Starmer bears any responsibility, it is institutional rather than personal - i.e., he has ultimate responsibility for ensuring adequate systems are in place (but, even then, is not responsible for how staff exercise their discretion within those systems). In terms of actual prosecutorial decisions, the DPP is only involved in a tiny fraction of those - when specifically referred to them.

The systems themselves were long-established - Starmer had only been in the role for a year - and when the potential missed opportunity re. Saville came to light, he oversaw a review of what went wrong and the implementation of systemic improvements.

Starmer could have done more and you will never convince me otherwise is basically an admission that you don't care about the facts, just personal prejudices.

I worked for the police for nearly 26 years. I understand how both they and the CPS operate.

You worked for the police (who can actually investigate crimes) for 26 years, all the while harboring suspicions about Saville?

Maybe that gives context for the baseless (in fact, debunked) finger-pointing.

To be fair, the police and the CPS do have a very cosy - and let's be fair - corrupt association. Mobile phones confiscated by the police so the defence team can't produce evidence in their client's favour, that sort of thing. Not my forte, but they do collude.

Police officers hate the CPS. They spend weeks / months gathering evidence for the CPS to proclaim there isn't enough evidence.

Ok, why do you think that a monster such as Jimmy Savile went to his grave a free man?
Do you thing he should have?
Do you think more could have been done to stop him?
You seem to have very little concern for the victims.

I mean I don’t love the guy and if he stays until the end of his term, I don’t think he’ll go down in history as a great PM, but honestly, compared to the scandal after scandal of the last Tory government, which was all swept under the carpet, Starmer seems to be getting a lot of flack for not really having done a lot wrong.

We need stability at the moment, not an endless carousel of PMs.

There’s definitely a drive within the MSM towards pushing people to the far right, and not just in the UK. It’s quite terrifying. The book ‘Nexus’ is an interesting insight into how this is happening.

Why didn’t you raise a concern about Saville then? Why didn’t I? We all knew he was creepy and heard the rumours. Kids just know. But then, he was having his Christmas dinner round old mother Thatchers and she gave him Broadmore to run, and Princess Di giving him a cuddle. Oh yeah, the establishment loved him because he worked for free and raised money to prop up underfunded institutions.He fitted right into Thatcher’s agenda to give unqualified people power over pesky professionals who might raise home truths about funding. Keep that tax bill down at all costs eh? We’ll just overlook the fact that he’s an abuser.

@user1464187087

● A few reasons but the primary one is that for a period of decades (between at least 1963 and 2008), whenever victims came forward, the police dismissed (or even threatened) them. Absent police investigations, no charges were referred to the CPS. Added to that was a bad (if not tehnically wrong) decision from a reviewing lawyer at the CPS in 2009, when the police eventually investigated some allegations.

● Of course not.

● Yes, by the police.

● This thread isn't about Saville or the victims, its about Starmer, and you're parroting debunked smears, which were widely condemned when Johnson tried them. Frankly, I think you're the one showing demonstrating little care for the victims, and just dishonestly leveraging their suffering to smear a politician you don't like.

'There were all sorts of rumours' doesn't mean anything, it's just tittle-tattle. Not all kids 'knew' or they wouldn't have applied in their thousands to be on Jim'll Fix It, including me, though for some reason my James Bond-related request went unanswered. It's like when Sex Pistol Johnny Rotten was latterly praised for raising the issue at the time - but the member of an anti-establishment band known for songs like 'Belsen was a Gas' isn't a reliable witness, now, is he.

Now, it's highly likely the Dark Heart of the British State knew about what he's actually got up to. But the British State is very good at the left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing, it is almost a pre-requisite to function.

It is quite likely therefore Sir Keir did not know about Sir Jim, and certainly wouldn't have personal evidence to hand, but then again tbf that is how the State operates, it's the 'plausible deniability' factor.

Incidentally, it's a missed opportunity to spell Sir Jim's name correctly: it's spelt with one 'l' - 'Savile' as in 'vile'.

@NewspaperTaxis we so did know about Savile. As did the some of the nurses at Stoke Mandaville. I had two mates whose mums were nurses there who said he had too much power and would never be alone with him. Possibly we didn’t know the extent of his vileness but we knew he was a creep alright. And Gary Glitter. Rolf was a surprise though. The thing about growing up in the 70s is that it was everywhere: sitcoms, pop songs, carry on films, st Trinians. We thought it was the the norm. We had a teacher, head of English and some kind of preacher who couldn’t keep his hands off us. The other teachers joked about him being a lay preacher because he laid on the hands. There was so much complicity. The BBC knew and Thatcher would have but he was ultimately proving you don’t need state care, you should look after your own. That’s why she loved him!

@NewspaperTaxis that song was written by Sid and Keith Lavene. I could go on about situationism and the interplay of signs and signifiers to jerk us out of the spectacle of advanced consumer capitalism… maybe another day😂

Yeah, I figured it was @SevenYellowHammers - but I think I said 'associated with'; the press at the time wouldn't have made that distinction. Hew as a nasty, uncouth punk who called for the end of the monarchy - why would anyone believe his say-so? Er, what do you mean about situationism.

You say 'we so did know about Savile'. How? It's the classic abuse situation. Those who are abused are traumatised and don't have the courage or credibility to make good witnesses. And lots of celebs looked creepy back then, it was just a matter of scale. Wilfred Bramell of Steptoe fame for instance. He used to go to Morocco to pick up young lads, I believe. I hate typing that, cos I love him in Steptoe & Son. Leonard Rossiter looked creepy, sure again he was playing a role as Rigsby. But some pieces about him as a person call him difficult, a perfectionist, very unforgiving. Brucie looked odd at times but I know of nothing on him; you can't just go on how somebody looks.

Nurses who thought he was weird, well, I don't know why this didn't gather steam. It reminds me of banging on on another thread about how euthanasia goes on in Surrey care homes. It's sort of Schrodinberg's cat (sp) - it's like everyone knows, but also there are folk who totally deny it and have a totally different experience.

You will get others who say that Savile was the perfect gent, did loads for charity - and when those others comprise members of the Royal family, you better not argue. And all that stuff about him will be totally true, also.

How could everybody have known? No internet back then, papers wouldn't run it. It was latterly discussed on the Popbitch website, but that's hardly a beacon of truth. We are talking about niche urban myth - one that turned out to be true, in this case.

It is entirely possible that even if this came to Starmer's attention, he might have taken such a view. That said, given his record in office, I admit one suspects that he is a fellow who takes a rather dispassionate view of these things, and being a State operative, might know when to turn a blind eye. I don't know.

@NewspaperTaxis kids talk, we talked, we knew he was a dirty old man. Anyone with a brain did. We all overlook things to fit our own likes. I love Wagner for instance.

Situationism is a form of culture where something shocking jerks you out of the spectacle but it only happens briefly because we’re all slaves to consumerism ultimately. It has a presence in punk/post punk culture. For instance, the Hacienda nightclub was a reference to a situationist text.

I did my dissertation on situationism and punk … a long time ago, in a different life.

I think the pistols or McLaren would argue that their songs about Belsen are to critique the hypocrisy of society finding one atrocity shocking while being complicit to another. Like how we sob over kittens whilst chomping on lamb . Well I don’t.. but you get the picture.

lydon was spot on with Savile in my opinion. Humans have a great capacity to pretend not to notice the obvious at times.

I’m so pissed off with both Burnham and Streeting and those f*ing petty and childish back benchers unable to see what the country needs. Incredible egotists of B and S thinking that they are going to solve Labours issues and somehow correct the world’s ills.

Both parties are the same. Look at Sunak forcing out Boris - what did that achieve? Bugger All. Sunak got thrown out at the GE. Just like when Brown forced out Blair - same result, thrown out at the GE. They never learn. Just self serving politicians who don't give a toss about the country, putting their own career aspirations (and lucrative jobs after politics) before serving the people who voted for them. Utterly awful.

It’s reckless and ego-driven. The delusion of Streeting thinking he has the popularity and skills - he only won his own MP seat on a narrow margin. And the arrogance of Burnham, losing the leadership election twice, not honouring his commitment to his role as mayor and causing an unnecessary, risky election as a stepping by stone to power. It’s just not the time or the way to do it. They could well lose that seat to Reform too given the local election results in that area.

And just when the media were beginning to finally focus on Farage’s funding, we’ll have this drama for weeks and Labour ministers are having to answer the same petty questions rather than promoting the work that is being done. I share your rage!

Honestly, I’m a Labour voter and from an area near Makerfield, and right at this moment, I hope a local, hardworking, independent MP focused on Makerfield enters and wins the by-election as a massive middle finger to this type of politics.

I don’t love the guy but you’re right OP- it could be a lot worse PM wise, while I don’t think Sunak would have necessarily allowed us to be dragged into the current conflict, I think Johnson would have, and Truss if she’d been in charge long enough.

@Sherbs12 I’m genuinely scared of Farage’s lot winning. To the extent that I think libdems, greens and independents should pull out! I know that’s paradoxical considering I started by supporting Starmer! I’m also guilty of being a Corbyn supporter which probably stopped LP being led by Burnham initially. I mean not me alone, I’m not THAT important 😂

@DavidStopActingLikeADisgruntledPelican I wonder what Boris would have done? He mistakenly thought he was Churchill so probably took us to war. Truss would have thought it was a big old girls’ hockey match and squealed with excitement.