What would you do about immigration?

[stateofthem]

I’ve seen an awful lot of political posts here recently, generally displeased with labour (other policies are for a separate thread) and taking hard stances on immigration.

I often feel as though people have a very blinkered view on immigration which does sway the argument. It seems to be either “let everyone in” or “let no one in” as such.

One point I wish to make is that currently you must be in the UK to be able to make an asylum claim. This (in my opinion) is the biggest factor in small boats/mass migration.

If I were in charge I would propose the following:

Re-implement the ability to seek asylum from abroad via one safe legal channel. Enforce that applications must be made via this route (obviously with concessions for no internet, poor English etc).

Applications are reviewed on a case by case basis, and if rejected, a person is placed onto a register explaining the reason for rejection (and possibly a timescale of when they could reapply).

Anyone who does not follow this channel is returned to their country of origin.

Anyone who arrives having not followed this policy is returned to their country of origin.

I appreciate that the above would need a lot of work and investment, and it’s not quite as straightforward as how I set it out, but I feel as if it’s a reasonable response which allows some migrants but not uncontrolled.

at the moment it feels as though both sides of the coin are offering very extreme solutions either way, and I feel as though someone needs to offer a more reasonable and middle way approach.

I am interested to hear others opinions on this, and if you disagree, what would you do instead?

I agree the system needs to be streamlined and reorganised. As someone mentioned above, paying higher salaries and recruiting properly qualified people to conduct these roles is a start

Hold on are you telling me you’re not allowed to claim asylum until you’re actually here ? wtf ? Surely that’s the answer then to all these boats, change that fact!

I agree to. I’m sick of our country being so soft, other countries don’t allow this kind of thing, so why do we?!

Yep! That’s the current process! So many people don’t realise this, and this is a huge part of the reason people use small boats etc etc

I think many things.

The first is that the refugee system was designed as a temporary refuge for people from war and persecution - it was never intended for numbers to be so massive that they fundamentally changed the host nation, or for people who are just migrating for money.

The second is that I don't think anybody should move to a country and then behave ungratefully, or show hatred towards the country in which they're a guest.

The third is that I think migrants cannot bring negative ideas and beliefs with them. If they've left a country rife with misogyny or antisemitism, that should not be welcomed here.

The fourth is that I think a host country's citizens paying for hotels or council houses or benefits fir migrants is objectively mad and completely unsustainable as a policy.

The fifth is that I think everyone can't just leave countries that lack things like democracy, human rights etc because then those countries never change or move forward.

The sixth is that I think America has a nice ideology where people can come from all over but that they want to be American. That's a sense of unity. Europe seems to be instead ashamed of its culture and invites sectarianism.

The seventh is that I think Britain has become so fractured because people don't have shared ideals or feel like they're on the same team - mass migration is partly responsible.

I say these things as a mixed race person who's grandma came here as a refugee. That said, she wasn't given a council house or benefits and she became very British. That doesn't mean she gave up her own culture, religion, cooking, customs - it just means she felt lucky to be BRITISH and was a massive patriot.

It's not racist or mean or bigoted or any of those things for people to want their home country to be generally safe, generally in alignment with its own identity, or for nationals to be prioritised over migrants.

I lived big parts of my life overseas and outside Europe that's the norm! Locals come first, ad if you're a guest, remember to behave yourself!

Indeed.

The ability to claim asylum from France would be enormously beneficial though - no need to pay £££ to criminals to risk your life in an inflatable. UK pays for France to build and run an asylum centre with the guarantee that anyone applying will have a fast-track decision in four weeks, and if required a fast-track appeal in six weeks.

What would I do? I would make sure that there is rock solid evidence about the figures. I don’t know on what basis immigration is said to be a problem. I’ve never seen figures, that are accepted, about how many people each year are immigrants, in what circumstances and where from. I don’t know how many people are asylum seekers and from where they come. I don’t know how many people are overstayers and I don’t know what problems this causes. Obviously I can guess, we all can do that, but that’s not good enough.

Above all, I don’t know, and I am mistrustful of people who tried to tell me, what problems immigration causes.

Very much of the debate seems to take as accepted fact the supposition the immigration causes problems. I just don’t know. I’m aware that there are stresses and strange in different parts of our different communities. Nevertheless, I’m not clear how much of all this is attributable to immigration and for what reasons.

Of course I accept that everyone has opinions about this. I’m used to living in places where there are large numbers of immigrant families, but many have been here for generations.

Leaving aside subjective views, what I need to know is how many and with what effect.

So that’s what I do.

Correct. There are three other routes: 1 if you’re from Ukraine, 2 Afghanistan and helped the UK there, and 3 Hong Kong.

Other than that - tough.

How would applying for asylum from another country reduce immigration? Those eligible would still come and those who are not would likely to come illegally (small boats, channel tunnel etc. )

We can um and ah about the different forms of and levels of immigration but the fundamental problem that underpins it is the rich want to keep the numbers of passive consumers/economically inactive high to push up the cost of rent/house prices/ everything else. It massively benefits rich people to be able to turn on the poverty tap and keep it running, the they know the government will just pay for it..for now at least, god knows what will happen if we end up unable to afford it as it's only increasing.

They don’t claim in France because France doesn’t accept them. The number of applications that are successful in France is tiny compared to the UK. Often they will have tried their luck and been turned down by multiple other countries before arriving in soft touch UK.

I don’t think anyone has mentioned student visas yet? So many people have come here on a student visa, brought a large number of dependents with them, and then never gone home. Some universities are making a very nice profit from this and providing courses of dubious value.

Yes, some of them are contributors to our society but many are not, and have brought their backward ideologies to this country and expect us to provide healthcare to their families and schooling for their children. We do not need these people; they are certainly not all engineers, doctors, and scientists as many politicians will have you believe!

I would allow online asylum applications, so that those granted asylum can be issued the relevant paperwork to travel legally.

Anyone showing up on the back of a lorry or a boat - immediate deportation.

I appreciate this would be an absolute logistical nightmare to implement, however. But over the long term I can't really see why we don't move to an online system. That way those granted asylum can be housed and issued with something like a temporary work permit or whatever as soon as they arrive, so they can work legally, and pay taxes.

Providing the ability to travel safely to the UK also weakens the power of the traffickers and smugglers. Because if migrants etc realise that this method - which is not only deadly, but may well result in deportation - doesn't actually help them, that then acts as a deterrent. So I think we'd actually see a significant drop in numbers.

Probably wouldn't work in practice, unfortunately.

You can't reapply for asylum, it's immediate threat to life

Then you need to create a legal system that allows people to apply for asylum from outside of the country.

Last statistic I saw was that 98.5% of students here on visas go home once their course finishes. Has this changed?

We don't want them full stop.

@FeistyFrankie That’s really interesting because I was discussing this with DH earlier. Can you point me in the direction of where that statistic came from?

I don't have ill feelings towards migrants and have been a migrant myself. I do think the asylum system is a bit bonkers. The average cost of processing an asylum seeker is £12,000. The cost of housing is a lot more. You can claim asylum for things like gender, religion and sexuality which obviously covers an awful lot of people. That doesn't seem financially sustainable. Having said that, at an individual level I feel huge sympathy and would want to let people stay.

How does that stop illegal immigration?

This is a good post OP, but

The 1951 Refugee Convention (and ECHR) makes it very difficult to return people who reach UK territory and claim asylum, especially if their home country is unsafe or they have a plausible fear of persecution.

That's the whole point of why the Rwanda plan was introduced - which the electorate rejected. Having said that, public opinion seems to have shifted towards it in the last two years.

This is kind of my method of thinking too, though I agree it’s difficult to put in place

Sorry to keep banging on about this. Nobody has answered the question as to how applying for asylum from outside of the country stops illegal immigration.

I’m not suggesting they claim in France, just stay there while their claim for asylum in the UK is being processed.

I’m not sure if this may already be in place, but a system for reviewing asylum status every couple of years or something?

I’m aware for example of men claiming asylum, then going on benefits, then being able to bring their wives with them who don’t speak english or work, who then give birth to several children here.

Should we be reviewing cases like this where if they are not working or haven’t learnt english despite being here several years?

Correct me if there is already a review system like this in place.