AIBU to think it's a shame that communal changing rooms are more likely to put girls off sport & PE than boys?

[Giselle374]

I read a few threads recently about communal changing rooms being an issue discouraging girls from PE . I feel strongly that cubicles should be provided. At my school, it wasn't an issue as we came wearing a top and skort and if we had swimming, changed in cubicles at the pool.

But at the same time, I think it's a shame that communal changing rooms don't tend to deter boys in the same way. Why? Arguably boys are less likely to feel shame about their bodies in adolescence, at least partly because of sexism : they don't get sexually harassed as much, they mostly have less visible development than breasts and periods etc Insragram etc encourages girls to view their bodies by how attractive they are rather than what they can do, but doesn’t encourage the same kind of thinking in boys : still, these issues predate it.

One poster on a thread I read argued that in Scandi countries, where saunas are common, girls are less likely to have issues with all having to change together. It’s certainly true that Britain has lower rates of girls continuing with sport into adolescence than some other countries- why would self consciousness about bodies be worse here?

Gloria Steinem wrote an interesting essay in 1981 (‘In Praise of Women’s Bodies’, in her book ‘Outrageous Acts and Everyday Rebellions’) about going to a women’s sauna, and the relaxed, non-body conscious atmosphere. She mentioned that ‘Now, like the teenage heroine in ‘Gypsy’, who is aware of her body only after she becomes a stripper, too many of us only experience female bodies, our own and others, in social settings and private bedrooms, only when they are most isolated, artificial, self-conscious and on show for men or conventional judgement. ‘ She also noted the relative rareness of ‘dressing and undressing, talking, showering, resting — the kind of casual togetherness that seems more common to locker rooms of men".

While I don’t think we’re in quite the same situation as 1980s US women, in some ways the situation is worse due to SM.

So AIBU think it's a shame that communal changing rooms are more likely to put girls than boys off sport & PE?

I suppose tying into this is the factor of boys being less likely to pick on individual boys for developing faster or slower in the same way as girls might be bullied by other girls for earlier or later development. As well as bullying being awful in itself, girls penalising each other like that only serves to hold them back as a group.

Are girls put off by communal changing rooms? I can't remember me or my friends ever being bothered at school (though they didn't make us shower so we were never naked). We certainly were never bothered by changing in front of each other for nights out etc.

I think I was put off because I didn't see being strong as very feminine/cool. There were few female athletes in the media to aspire to too. Things seem much better on both scores nowadays so it's really sad if girls are still being put off.

Well, I'm older Gen Z and it was never an issue if for some reason someone did want to change quickly, we'd just look away. I was at a girls' school and we weren't mostly that body conscious which was good.

I have been reading about why girls do less sport recently though and this has come up, several times on threads here too.. Though you're right, it may not necessarily be that major a factor.

Definitely there's more encouragement of stuff like weight training now, and more female athletes etc, so both things should help. The PE/sport drop-off does remain for now, though.

Reasons DDs dont like PE...

• they hot and sweaty... or cold and sweaty
• their hair gots hot and sweaty
• the choice of sports
• time to get changed
• the changing rooms being cramped.

Both enjoy their chosen sports out of school

I absolutely was put off by changing rooms. And the fact that I was a very early developer (I had periods by 8 years old) and was forced to do PE when in the middle of what I now know to be endometriosis attacks.

I was also an early developer, so was still at the stage of everyone changing in the classroom together in primary school when I was going through puberty. Boys, and girls, pulling my bra strap, hilarious.

I'm also autistic, although undiagnosed while at school, and was a very private and quiet person. I hated being exposed in the changing rooms, trying to hide behind my clothes, changing very slowly so most people would have left. Which then led to being told off numerous times.

At least we didn't have to have communal showers (they were still there when I was at secondary, but never used) I just wouldn't have coped with that.

Cubicles would be fantastic, but I can see there might be problems with kids getting up to no good in them, supervision etc.

You were going through puberty and forced to change with boys there? You should have been able to change on your own, definitely not with boys there 💐.
When was this? I really hope this wouldn't happen now...

I definitely think the should be the option to change in a cubicle.

I don't think it's the communal aspect that is the problem, it's the process.

Boys are happier to get sweaty/hot/wet, then chuck their uniform on in 5 minutes flat and go to other lessons. Girls not so much but they still have to do PE so I don't really understand how they are put off. There is no choice.

While there will of course be people put off by communal changing rooms, I doubt it’s a driving factor in low engagement rates when it comes to sports and fitness.

Communal sauna is a normal part of Scandinavian culture, the same as sport in general. It’s the default, and promoted and supported as such by government. Culturally it’s very different to the UK.

Definitely agree that communal sauna culture in Scandi countries is different...it might be a useful thing but you can't change norms in such a short time even if it were hypothetically more common here.

As to how big a role communal changing rooms play, I will find some links later on this evening. I do think they probably play some role, if so the question is why they affect boys less, who likewise aren't growing up in a sauna-style Scandi culture.

Why do you think the difference is? Adolescent girls more self conscious about appearance ? More emphasis on grooming etc in media?

That's terrible. 💐 I can't believe you were forced to do it through endometriosis: hopefully that wouldn't happen now... Can I ask roughly when this was?

This was the 80s. I think it was pretty normal at primary then, unfortunately, as well as having to do PE in your underwear if you'd forgotten your PE kit. And PE kit being little more than knickers and a T-shirt at my single sex secondary school - that was for athletics, we got wear a tiny skirt for other sports. Ugh. I hope PE clothes options are better now!

Thanks, intetesting. Can I ask why they don't like the choice of school sports? What would they prefer - and what do they do outside?

Because sports are more associated with masculinity, I would imagine. Boys generally aren’t expected to care about being hot, sweaty, and ‘messy’, and if anything are encouraged to be.

80s? I can't believe they still had clothing like that for PE! It's also weird that PE knickers were ever a thing : especially as the 1930s was stricter on perceived 'modesty'- why were girls back then given such skimpy PE clothing, and why did it continue for so long?

A theory I read on another thread was that it was derived from boys' public school ideas about sport needing to be uncomfortable to be character-improving, not sure how accurate that is.

At least I definitely don't think this is a thing now. What I had : T shirt, skort, with options for customising with leggings or wearing trousers, seems much more common.

Re PE knickers... I tell my DDs we campaigned to be allowed to wear shorys longer than the popular "Nike Pros". Ive shown tbem pictures of the hideous bright purple PE knickers. (And how Cross Country in the local park brought in spectators). They are horrified.

Their own PE "Skorts" dont meet the regulations on short length for an upcoming school trip... but the one a week later requires PE kit (which is the Skort, Shorts like the boys wear, or leggings)

I can’t say I really enjoyed the communal changing rooms at school. In my school there were shower cubicles, about 4 in each changing room. They were never used to shower in, girls would race to get to those first to change in and the rest of us were stuck in the communal area. So I wouldn’t be against cubicles being installed if it makes the experience that bit more comfortable for everyone, the only issue would be space, the changing rooms at my school weren’t huge, so I don’t think 30 or so cubicles would fit. But maybe curtains could be put in or something.

Another option would be to have the kids come to school in their pe kits on days they have it. I know many primary schools already do this to save time and it works well at my dc’s primary and especially in year 6 this definitely helps the girls feel more comfortable. Although I’d imagine at secondary, the need to get changed afterwards would still exist especially if the kids get sweaty, muddy and smelly and some kids might forget to bring in their uniforms to change into afterwards which would cause issues in itself.

Definitely all for as many barriers being removed to encourage girls to take part and even enjoy pe, no matter how small.

Good point. I suppose that comes to the crux of the issue with women & sport : beauty standards all too often still pressure girls & women to feel they need to be dainty to be feminine. Hence only recently have we had female weightlifting advice focusing on health & weight rather than avoiding 'too much muscle'. Women who have broader shoulders (useful for swimming) are still often seen as not feminine enough.

Recently I read an article about the disturbing Reddit community Vindicta, (inspired by the already dubious Female Dating Strategy). Essentially a forum for women to obsessively analyse, in themselves and celebrities, what makes a woman beautiful, with strong focus on 'dimorphism' and 'neoteny ' . Thus women were rated higher the smaller, lighter, and younger they looked, essentially a mindset that prioritises the need to 'contrast' with big, strong males. This is obviously an extreme community but it shows the wider issues that have been worsened by the renewed the IG/selfie etc era brought to how women look.

Incidentally, another 1980s Steinem essay ('The Strongest Woman in the World' in 'Moving Beyond Words') is good on the issue of prioritisation of looks vs strength in women's fitness and sport.

Have there been that many threads on this matter then OP?

Most schools have separate changing rooms and toilets though? Or like my daughter they cone to school in PE kit and wear it all day so no changing involved.

You mean cubicles?

Here's 2 for a start.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4498676-Teenage-girls-being-pushed-out-of-sport-survey-finds

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4917479-girls-experiences-of-pe?page=3&reply=139709921

I think that may be too simplistic a way of looking at it. Instagram may shape, but it also is shaped. The relationship between the platform and the users is symbiotic.

Additionally, while it reinforces certain norms, it also expands access to a wider range of them. It provides access to ‘tribes’ that otherwise would have remained inaccessible. You can find ‘your people’ on there, and your feed will reflect back to you your own interests. This can be either positive or negative, or both depending on your perspective.

Beauty standards are impacted by many things, up to and including the wider economy. It’s been found that economic instability correlates with higher levels of adherence to stereotypical gender norms.