Paramedics made my father go to hospital

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My father has atrial fibrillation. He has had this for years.

He has been told multiple times what to do in the case of an episode of AF. Today, he had one while I was visiting. It took a long time to pass, so in line with his consultant’s plan my mother called 999, after the usual medications had been given at home.

In the time it took for the paramedics to arrive, the attack passed and when they did arrive, it had been nearly an hour since it had ended.

They still made him go to hospital as they “couldn’t rule out a heart attack”, despite my father insisting that he knows his body, knows what an AF episode feels like and knows when it has passed. All he wanted was to go to bed and sleep off the effects of the beta blockers he had taken.

They still essentially made him go to hospital, saying that they would make him sign forms if he didn’t which showed he had refused medical advice. I was present and the paramedics essentially made it sound as though he would be at the back of the queue if it returned and he needed an ambulance again.

Fast forward 10 hours and he’s still in hospital, no doctors available to read his ECG or his blood test results, and he’s been sleeping in a hard plastic chair. AIBU to think this is ridiculous? Paramedics really shouldn’t be encouraging patients to attend hospital when it’s not necessary.

OP says he was bullied into not signing the form and therefore going to hospital. He is an adult with agency. OP then says they would not send an ambulance if he rang later.

professionally they cannot deny to send an ambulance if it is called for in any case. They might be busy, it might take time but they will not refuse.
We only have the version from OP.
I would like to hear the paramedics side of this.

So you wasted everyone’s time calling an unnecessary ambulance and are now going to waste even more time and money with an unnecessary complaint. The NHS cannot function in a society when people are so entitled and unreasonable - OP’s family and their ilk are the reason it is effectively doomed.

They ordered an ambulance and one came. Paramedics strongly advocated to go to hospital. They are not cardiologists. They cannot undertake all the tests that a hospital can. The patient decided to go
to hospital where they took him. He will have had further tests which would have been reviewed by said doctors and cardiologists. Once they were sure he was safe to discharge and the doctors had their other serious patients stable enough they could come and speak to the patient they did. Patient went home.

Not sure what they are complaining to PALS for. Staff will have to document it and speak/email those involved, review their responses and the whole case. What a waste of more NHS time and money.

I think OP’s father needs to sit down with his family and discuss what interventions he actually does and doesn’t want if his health declines.

Several things puzzle me about this post...I was diagnosed with AF years ago and have been taking daily preventative medication ever since and have consequently NEVER ever had 'an episode'?!
I get yearly check ups at the surgery for both medication and the physical aspect of things to ensure that nothing else untoward is going on...if I were to be concerned in any way that something wasn't quite right (and I knew it wasn't likely that I was having a heart attack) I would ring 111 not 999 as that sets a whole other ball game off as they found out later on but then OP does mention that it was as per 'the consultant's plan' so not sure what that's all about?
The Paramedics were in a catch-22 situation, they probably knew he really didn't need to go to hospital but the protocols were in place that overruled any common sense approach and they had no choice in the matter other than to let OP's Dad know the legal situation if he didn't want to go to hospital which was to sign the appropriate forms to cover themselves and their jobs if necessary, but it's not difficult to understand why and how he and OP's Mum would have felt uncertain and pressured.
However, it's not the Paramedic's fault that the NHS is in such a sorry state and that the poor man was made to suffer for hours on end unnecessarily instead of being at home in his own bed! 🙄

I was taken to hospital by ambulance on the advice of paramedics within the last 6 months. It was almost certainly a false alarm - I felt so, and a friend a rang who's a GP felt so, but they wanted to be on the safe side. It all kicked off at about 12am, and I got home the next day at about 2pm, after having spent most of the intervening time on a trolley in an electric lit hallway, with only 3 5-minute consultations to clear me.

My response to this?

Grateful to live in a country that was able and willing to check me out, and efficient enough to prioritise other patients on realising I wasn't an urgent case.

(Also knackered! 😂)

It would have been better to cancel the ambulance if you had waited a long time and in the meantime the episode had subsided. I did this recently and was asked verbally if I took responsibility which I agreed to. The next day I called an ambulance with no issue.

I’m so confused why call an ambulance if you don’t want medical treatment? Bizarre behaviour!

If your father doesn’t want medical treatment don’t call an ambulance and let someone who does want and need treatment!

They called the ambulance because it's in the consultant's plan.

And that’s because you’re obtuse!

You chose to phone an ambulance. You chose not to cancel the ambulance, You chose not to sign the form, he chose not to leave the hospital. But now you are putting a complaint in. Absolutely pathetic. They gave you the opportunity to sign a form and made it quite clear that it was on your head if he didn't. The reason they do these things is because people like you would be the first complain if he dropped dead and if they then said he said he felt all right he wanted to stay home, you would rightly reply we're not a medical professionals how are we supposed to know? it's not the paramedics, the doctors or the nurses faults that there's massive delays. People like you make my blood boil.

And what else was in the consultants plan?

So you’ve got great faith in the consultant?

It is really infuriating. However, I think the paramedics are damned if they do and damned if they don’t. They just have to stick to procedures. Likewise, if he is not critical, the hospital have to stick to priorities. It is unfortunate that it all worked out like this as I’m sure your dad would rather be recovering from this episode at home. But I guess, the nhs is trying its best. Hopefully he’ll be home soon and the AF will be treated again soon. Such a pain though.

People like you.... how charming

Why call an ambulance if it wasn’t needed???

They called the ambulance because it's in the consultant's plan.

I totally agree. I had a similar problem with 111 - long story, but the summary was that I had an optical migraine - never had one before and didn’t know what it was so phoned 111 who were helpful, but after 25 minutes it passed and I was still on the phone to them and I just wanted to go to bed. It was late evening, I’m a carer for my husband, and I have a dog, and no family to help and they wanted me to go to A & E. So it’s not that easy. 30 minutes later they finally let me go, but I had a confirm I wouldn’t hold them responsible if anything happened overnight. I saw my doctor next day and he diagnosed it and said A&E would have been no help, I needed to see an optician to get it confirmed and checked. Had I gone I’d have walked in, quite wEll, and guess I’d have sat there all night!

so I have full sympathy with your dad. I wonder how this over cautious attitude impacts on A&E?

Try opening your mind a little. If you’re a paramedic with an AF patient, he or she is not dying on my watch.

But what else was in the consultants plan?

No idea. Haven't seen it myself.

Of course you're unreasonable. You could have rung and cancelled the ambulance but instead allowed it to still come and the form he was told he'd have to sign is the same one the hospital would get him to sign if he, or anyone, decided to leave before being seen or waiting for results.
You know how busy the ambulance service is so if you decide you no longer need one please cancel it!

I thought you had, you sounded so ill-informed!

How ill informed?

The OP literally said calling an ambulance was in the plan... Tiddlywink was merely repeating.

How is your Dad now? I hope he’s OK. I totally understand your concerns as I have AFib myself.
The issue here I think is that the paramedics implied that in the event of subsequently needing an ambulance he wouldn’t get one.I think saying this precipitates a lot of extra stress and worry for the patient and his family. I think that signing a disclaimer is fine but then to add that doing so would result in an ambulance not being available if needed later is not.
There are a few pieces of information missing here though. Did the paramedics do an ECG? They should have, and if your Dad was in normal sinus rhythm and his AFib symptoms had responded to additional beta blockers and breathing exercises then he would have been extremely unlikely to have had a heart attack! Does your Dad have an ECG machine? Then ditto. (If your Dad doesn’t;t have an ECG machine, could I suggest he gets a Kardia mobile? My cardiologist urged me to get one and it is immeasurably helpful and easy to use. It is hugely reassuring in monitoring AFib episodes and their reversion to normal.
The other question in my mind is when the paramedics said an ambulance would not be available if your Dad subsequently needed one, then what timeframe were they referring to? If say he needed an ambulance some days later (hopefully not!) and for a different reason, would their comment still apply? They would have needed to qualify their comment with further information such as “we won’t be able to come back out again within the next hour or two” or something like that. Paramedics use guidance called the JRCALC and the thing to do in such circumstances is to ask whether their recommendations comply with the JRCALC. (I know this through my professional experience).
Having gone to the hospital, yes, your Dad could have self-discharged at any point - but that’s a very difficult thing to do for most people, because as I know from experience, once you are there you feel compelled to stay within the system, and also there will have been the niggling thought that maybe “the paramedics knew something that they weren’t saying so better to get checked out”. I imagine your Dad had bloods taken to check his troponin level to make absolutely sure he hadn’t had a heart attack, even if his sinus rhythm was normal - that’s a routine process for people who are known to have had an episode of arrhythmia whether AFib or something else.
I think that the important thing here, instead of levying a complaint initially, is to ask for a more detailed explanation around the paramedics’ judgement that your Dad should go to hospital even after having been informed of his AFib and self-management regimen. That way, everyone can learn from the experience.
I’m sorry to hear your Dad had to sit on a hard plastic chair for 10 hours - unfortunately that’s the state of acute care in the NHS at the moment. However, it does sound like there wasn’t serious concern about your Dad when he will have been triaged on arrival at the hospital (otherwise he would have been put in resus), which again supports the suggestion that he simply had a longer than usual AFib episode that should be reported to his cardiologist.

Sorry for the long post - but I write from personal experience both from a personal and a professional perspective.

Take care.

The issue here I think is that the paramedics implied that in the event of subsequently needing an ambulance he wouldn’t get one.I think saying this precipitates a lot of extra stress and worry for the patient and his family. I think that signing a disclaimer is fine but then to add that doing so would result in an ambulance not being available if needed later is not.

The exact point of the thread.

This- why call an ambulance if you don't want to go to hospital, the ambulance could be needed somewhere else.
All the paramedics l have encountered have been lovely, a lot nicer than some of the hospital staff. Don't blame them.