Paramedics made my father go to hospital

[wecangoupupup]

My father has atrial fibrillation. He has had this for years.

He has been told multiple times what to do in the case of an episode of AF. Today, he had one while I was visiting. It took a long time to pass, so in line with his consultant’s plan my mother called 999, after the usual medications had been given at home.

In the time it took for the paramedics to arrive, the attack passed and when they did arrive, it had been nearly an hour since it had ended.

They still made him go to hospital as they “couldn’t rule out a heart attack”, despite my father insisting that he knows his body, knows what an AF episode feels like and knows when it has passed. All he wanted was to go to bed and sleep off the effects of the beta blockers he had taken.

They still essentially made him go to hospital, saying that they would make him sign forms if he didn’t which showed he had refused medical advice. I was present and the paramedics essentially made it sound as though he would be at the back of the queue if it returned and he needed an ambulance again.

Fast forward 10 hours and he’s still in hospital, no doctors available to read his ECG or his blood test results, and he’s been sleeping in a hard plastic chair. AIBU to think this is ridiculous? Paramedics really shouldn’t be encouraging patients to attend hospital when it’s not necessary.

@wecangoupupup- you start off by saying they insinuated an ambulance wouldn’t be sent. Then you move on to saying they maintained ambulance wouldn’t be sent. Which is it?

Which is why they obviously didn't say it.

OP, I don't think the NHS is set up to provide the care to your father that you expect.

It is reasonable that if you expect a concierge service to go private and pay for it. Then you can demand and complain to your heart's desire as you are a paying customer.

Otherwise the hostility you are getting on this thread is from others who resent subsidising time-wasting complainers like your family who expect Rolls Royce customer-is-right service without having to fork out at point of use and then complaining on top of that to waste even more of NHS' resources because you expect the moon on a stick for free.

Your entitlement is off the scale.

Total time wasters.

Of course they didn’t.
How gullible are you, @HelenaWaiting ?

That’s going to depend on the exact wording I’d have thought. If A&E is already busy (and AMU is a sort of extension of ED tbh) and there is a big event on that gets messy it’s quite possible that saying there won’t be an ambulance later is just a statement of fact that has nothing to do with having refused treatment earlier.

Surprisingly, a heart attack isn’t among the highest category of prioritisation. Unless it is really really serious.

Neither. Didn’t happen.

I have atrial fibrillation and had infective endocarditis last year which I had open heart surgery for and if I had an attack that went for too long or just didn't feel "right" there's no way in the world I wouldn't be calling an ambulance. I've nearly lost my life once, I'm not going to risk it again.

Did they actually say that?

I am certain that your dad wasn't bullied by the paramedics. If someone is declining treatment they have got to firmly and clearly state what the consequences of this might be so that the patient and their family can make an informed decision. And so that they can't complain later if something goes wrong and they say they weren't told the facts.

Totally agree. What they likely said is we are here now but can’t guarantee an ambulance in tge future especially as tge OP said there is an event on in the locality later which potentially could get ambulances diverted to it.

Also if the OPs father was so sure there was no need to go why would it be a problem that there may not be an ambulance available later? Tge OP states he knew there was no issue as ‘he knows his own body’ so he clearly knew he wouldn’t need to call an ambulance later if that were true. The fact he went is that he was less certain of his own opinion than the OP is making out. Her father could quite legitimately have refused to go and signed the paperwork to say that.

I’m a bit frustrated by what I’m reading OP.

As a nurse who has worked in A&E, I genuinely believe the paramedics acted appropriately. Many people who have a heart attack don’t realise it at the time, so it’s not something that can be confidently ruled out on the spot. You obviously felt concerned enough to call for them in the first place so in situations like that, it’s always safer to be cautious. If something serious had been missed, you would have also complained.

Regarding the idea that ambulances were being held back for a local event, that is quite frankly, ridiculous. They can’t just ‘save’ ambulances just in case. Decisions like these are made based on patient safety and clinical need.

As for the 10-hour wait in A&E, I understand how frustrating that must have felt but the staff aren’t idle - they’re continuously treating a high volume of patients. He had observations and blood tests done, and if those results were reassuring, it’s likely he was considered stable. That means others who were more unwell needed to be seen first and were the priority.

It really upsets me when I see posts like this - medical professionals cannot do right for doing wrong these days, unless everything is absolutely perfect.

Unfortunately with the NHS the way it is, we don't get to recieve care in the way we would ideally like to. In an ideal world, a paramedic crew would come out, check his vital signs, agree the emergency had passed and reassure him that if it happened again at any point they'd quickly reappear and repeat.
In the world we live in, where demand for services exceeds capacity, we have to accept compromises that keep us safe in a less resource intensive way.
The ambulance was there. There was enough of a risk he'd need one again to make it seem sensible he used the one that was there rather than needing another one.

I’m sorry. I don’t think you have a clue just how badly the NHS is rundown, how understaffed it is, or indeed how badly this country has been served by its politicians for 25 years at least.

You are definitely being unreasonable and dismissive of trained medical professionals.

My DM died of a sudden unexpected heart attack. When she called for an ambulance she was told it would be a 3 hour wait.

She died alone whilst waiting for the ambulance.

Be glad that one showed up.

If he's still sat around 10 hours later, they've decided he's not a priority and in which case, you could self-discharge. They can't stop him from leaving.

I've been in A&E when it was a life-threatening emergency (my own) and in those cases, you are not left to wait for 10 hours.

I would imagine there are plenty of notes on file that you are a family of utter tw%ts and there will be a lot of eyerolling that you have complained again about getting the service you asked for

I can’t believe you think that Paramedics won’t have heard of AF. Jeez.

But this applies under the circumstances. The country is ruined op. Too many people expect 1:1 care when we are staffed 1:8, 1 to eight patients. If we are lucky. Sometimes it’s worse than that, and the true 1:1s are just chucked on as an additional thing to do.

Do complain op. Complain to your MP on our behalf and demand clarity about what they’ve done. Demand they find the funds they have flogged to their mates and give it back into our services.

What a state of affairs we are being subjected to.
I took my self to a/e a few nights ago. I'd had palpitations all day so rang 111. They said i needed an Ecg and to go to a/e.
I fully went expecting to be a few hours.
2 half hours in and I'd had my obs, bloods and an ecg.
Then from midnight to 830am I sat on a hard chair getting colder and colder, not many staff about at all.
When the day shift came on I was seen by a very apologetic doctor. (Telling me it's how he starts every shift)

What really angers me is that it was well known by somebody that there would be no doctors available to check patients results anytime during the night.
Effectively a and e closed at midnight unless you were imminently dying.... very upsetting to discover, it was like the worst torture.
So all you cynics out there who haven't visited a/e recently, your turn will come.
The system has completely broken down.

Sorry for your dad's experience Op.

I’ve been thinking about this a bit more.

yes your dad has AF and “knows his own body”. So has he also had a cardiac arrest previously and knows what that feels like and can confidently differentiate between the two every time?

if the AF had resolved why didn’t you cancel the ambulance? You could even have turned them away at the door? Literally no point in letting them do tests if you disagree with them and think the whole thing is pointless

They advised him to go. Maybe strongly but they are erring on the side of caution. You father could have refused. Could have signed the waiver to refuse medical treatment. He also could have self discharged. If he got up and said he was walking out a nurse would have taken his cannula out but they are probably dealing with more pressing patients. It’s a Bank Holiday weekend. The NHS and staff are stretched and being in the acute medical centre means he is in the right place if he needs treatment as they are close to resus and the specialist cardiologists.

I’m sure if they had left him at home and he did have a heart attack you would be angry and complaining.

She's not making a general complaint about the NHS - she's making a complaint about specific individuals - she appears to be trying to get the paramedic disciplined/sacked for having the audacity to turn up when called and taking her dad to hospital when he opted to go when giving the choice not to
Its her, and people like her, that are the reason the NHS has problems

You say he presents with chest pain when he has AF. In most ED departments any patient over 30 with chest pain as a presenting complaint will require consultant sign off to discharge these patients. The paramedics (or Band 4 Technicians as they may well have been) are not consultants.
Your Dad (or Mum called 999) they advised him of the care they had to offer within their guidelines and explained that he could refuse transport/ treatment, he chose to go to hospital, rather than make his own decision and sign the PCR.
What exactly are you complaining about?

He should have just insisted on signing the forms and headed to bed if he was sure a trip to hospital wasn't required.