To think this attitude to names like Fanny in old books is silly?

[Carla786]

I've seen posts here agreeing with the new Enid Blyton editions that changed Fanny to Franny and Dick to Rick, some even saying she must have meant it as a double entendre.

 Just seems silly & narrow-minded to me. Not everything was always meant as a double entendre. Should Fanny Price in Mansfield Park also be changed? Or other characters called names that mean different things now? 

I remember my mother passed down a minor Blyton book with a kitten called Bimbo in. Was that Blyton being rude, or just due to the fact that Bimbo was slang for 'kid' then?

Another old chestnut I've seen in MN discussions of the name is that Fanny Hill I proof it was used in the slang sense back in the 18th century. But there doesn't seem to be proof of this.

https://grammarphobia.com/blog/2017/02/fanny.html

Apparently there's a 'debate in academia' over whether Austen meant the name in that sense? I mean, come on!

I suppose what I'm wondering is when and why it became taboo? I suppose post-60s changes where sexual double entendres became more prominent?

It is ridiculous I agree

Are Enid Blyton's 5 Find-Outers & Dog books still in print? Those had a character called Fatty, which is probably a no-no nowadays too.

Swallows and Amazons had a Roger as well as a Titty iirc. Proper racy stuff.

It's all stupid imo. Things are of their age. Read them or don't read them, but don't sanitise them, especially for such stupid reasons. Little Black Sambo or Gollies are another matter obviously. Can't believe we collected tokens for Golly badges from the jam jars back in the day. Not even that long ago really.

But cousin marriage just wasn't an issue then. Not only was it legal but it was perfectly socially acceptable. If it hadn't been Austen wouldn't have featured it, not just in Mansfield Park, but in other novels too.

Mr Darcy doesn't end up marrying his first cousin Lady Anne de Bourgh in Pride and Prejudice, but her mother pushes for it, and no one thinks there is anything wrong with it in principle. Henrietta Musgrove marries her first cousin Charles Hayter in Persuasion.

JA's own brother Henry married their first cousin Eliza de Feuillide.

(Lots of more distant cousin proposals and courtships, too -- Mr Collins is a cousin of the Bennet girls and proposes marriage to Elizabeth, and Mr Elliot in Persuasion is Anne's cousin.)
.

That's a good point : and I see the irony in criticising when it was seen very differently then. At least Darcy didn't end up marrying Anne, he clearly didn't seem keen.

Yes they are! I think....At least my mother read me modern editions. And I loved them. I think a lot of her lesser known ones are just as good..
Fatty's name was unfortunate, he was a good character. it rightfully wasn't changed though.

Re Roger, I had to chuckle at this spoof post under the Guardian article :
'Ransome was obsessed with sexually charged names. Titty, Roger, Nancy. Peggy and in later books, Dick. Even the kitten was called Sinbad.'

It was known by 1919 as a a man who is stupid/inept, and by 1920 for an attractive woman who is unintelligent and frivolous. In the US at least. It didnt fully set in as the main usage until the 80s though.

On Blyton : apparently she wasn't particularly naive in her private life. She played tennis nude and had affairs with both men and women.

But that doesn't mean her books have sexual double entendres, any more than Arthur Ransome's communist involvement means it must be noticeable in Swallows and Amazons

BTW I like Fanny Ardant too.

No I get that but Fanny/Franny Dick/Rick doesn't alter anything contextual. We are talking kid's books not books where language is analysed for education!

I loved Blyton in the 90s, I knew the modern day interpretation of Dick and Fanny of course but knew it didnt mean that in the context of the book so was never a problem or source of laughter for me. And Rick doesnt really sound better. There's no Rick's under 50!

I read this book recently. It was very interesting. "Arthur Ransome and Captain Flint's Trunk" by Christina Hardyment (1984)

Yes, the book was originally written in 1943 UK, so the US meaning probably wouldn't have registered so much. Bimbo is a male character in the book but I doubt she was thinking of the male character either.
Incidentally, when googling I was suggested the Nigerian actress Bimbo Akintola. It turns out Bimbo is still a popular name there, often short for various names.

No but why should it change? It assumes children now are too immature when people in 90s etc as pp said could enjoy the unaltered books. As I've said, it seems to more often be adults who are immature over this

👏🏽

Playing tennis in the nude just seems dangerous...

The Find Outers and Dog were brilliant. Bit of a departure in genre for Blyton, and those books were a lot more humorous than some of the other series.

The gormless village policeman was Mr Goon. According to DC - who started secondary this year and it's definitely a rite of passage from childhood innocence' - 'goon' has quite different connotations these days from simply meaning a stupid person.

This old dinosaur has learned something new from my 12-YO kid!

I've read about Blyton's bisexuality before and her two daughters apparently had quite different accounts of her as a mother.

Despite my facetious post I don't think she was in the least naive. She just had the kind of writing-mind that spoke to a children's mindset, and didn't seem particularly interested in the responses of readers over 12 years old.

There's some nuance and pathos there, though. She couldn't write teenage crushes very well (Jo and Dick, Diana and Barney, and my DC cringes over Bets 'fangirling' over Fatty). Nor does she 'do' adult relationships (Allie and Bill Cunningham). But I thought her representation of Alison's obviously passionate crush on Miss Quentin in the St Clare's school series, and Alison's obvious hurt when her affections are brutally rejected, was one of the most poignant scenes I've ever read in a book of hers. It was beautifully done, far too subtle for Blyton!

Pity she does nothing with the Alison character after this. She should have grown and changed as a result of her painful experience, but instead is left as the frivolous girl she ever was, who always falls in love with the wrong people. Poor Alison!

Reminds me of the scene with Sarah Stratton and Rupert Campbell-Black in Jilly Cooper's Rutshire books!

Wonder if that's where Cooper got the idea?

What annoys me is when they update currency in children's books - why? I was born just after decimalisation and read lots of books that were still in 'old money' as a child - it didn't bother me at all. - it ruins books when the money is out of context with everything else.

Definitely!

Link here :

https://www.pressreader.com/uk/daily-mail/20231212/282029037012722?srsltid=AfmBOoqjUBDq5gscv9rPmQ9iMcVCGMo3Ik1ThROH7eOKrttIM8da3Vma

If your children are horrified at Fanny, Dick or Titty used innocently, then the 'exposure to filth' ship has already sailed

It’s ridiculous that people feel the need to shield their little darlings from ‘filth’ - ie people’s real names from the past - whilst all around us and them in these times is relentless foul language in popular music and porn culture everywhere. Literal porn on many children’s phones. And yet they get the vapours out for a bit of Dick and Fanny.

Sorry, I see what you mean : definitely she focused on her children's audience.. and I think that made sense. The racist stuff she included shouldn't have been, but I don't agree with criticisms that her books are too simple. Plenty of writers for that age group surely aimed for entertainment but didn't remain classic so aren't criticised.

I agree re crushes. That scene with Alison certainly is a contrast and as you say it's a shame she didn't do more with Alison.

I do find Bimbo & Topsy poignant now as Gillian & Imogen feature as characters, owners of the puppy & kitten. It feels ironic that Blyton wrote her daughters into stories of a happy family life when irl the story was different,, at least for Imogen. I suppose maybe a bit like the real Christopher Robin.