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parkrun defending their position

758 replies

Funtime2 · 26/04/2026 11:52

I used to be a parkrunner and do not understand how parkrun can defend their position of allowing trans identfying males into the female category.

I read that 280 published race winners in the female category are actually men identifying as women. How is this fair to women? Some women don’t care about this but some women do, just as some men take it as a race and care about the rankings and some men don’t

The other option of course is they could stop the timing, stop recording winners and records?

AIBU to genuinely not understand why parkrun claim not to be a race when they time the runners, publish times by category, rank times and runners, and have record holders by category.

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21
Underthinker · Yesterday 08:09

Funtime2 · Yesterday 08:04

But how would an age grading help women? How demotivating when I am age graded against men.

No No No to this.

I think age grading is different to age ranking. If i understand it correctly, age grading compares your run against a wider set of data for runners all over the world, so will be less skewed by a few cheating men in your local parkrun.

Still I dont agree with the idea in general, its just a way of avoiding the actual issue.

igelkott2026 · Yesterday 08:10

Funtime2 · Yesterday 08:04

But how would an age grading help women? How demotivating when I am age graded against men.

No No No to this.

You're not age graded against men or male bodied people - the age gradings are an international standard and you are compared with women of the same age group.

If there are male bodied people in the stats they are so diluted that it really isn't an issue, it's not like them taking course records (or the Lia Thomas's of this world taking medals and team places away from women).

igelkott2026 · Yesterday 08:13

For the avoidance of doubt, I don't like it as a solution either, but I think it's what they'll do. They were going to do it for GDPR reasons anyway so you'd have to follow friends like Strava to see their results.

On the parkrace app you can only look someone up if you know their barcode number, although there are some tables on there (eg for those who have done more than 500 events) which allow you to click through to see someone's event history. They'd already changed the functionality on the website as well so you couldn't search for someone (and that was apparently because of witch hunts against trans people to find out where they'd been running and whether they'd broken a ladies course record that week).

WeMeetInFairIthilien · Yesterday 08:16

The problem we have is twofold.

  1. Men who are not used to being told no/the misogyny that holds what men want as more important than what women need.
  1. The government refusing to publish/ratify the EHRC guidelines, despite the LAW being very clear about biological sex and discrimination.

Until this is published, so many companies and organisations are in plausible denial.

See, for example, the Youth Hostel Association (YHA).

Their accommodation is based on gender, not sex. There are no single sex dormitories/shared rooms in any of their hostels. They ask for 'female'and 'male' on their booking form, but their policy is that 'female' doesn't mean sex, but gender self-ID.

Many of their bathrooms are mixed sex, with gaps under the door and shower cubicles. Basically, just had the male and female signs taken off of the doors.

Until our government actually states "a single sex space must be for a single biological sex", too many organisation and companies will be happy to ignore women, in favour of the more strident (male) TRA voice.

Ihatetomatoes · Yesterday 08:16

Bumb13B33 · 27/04/2026 19:03

It’s not a competition so nobody can cheat. If posters want to turn it into a competition they need to start their own and as for shoving women aside. 🙄

It's a competition because somebody wins each category. There's a winner

Spaghettea · Yesterday 08:24

Parkrun need to scrap all results really if they won't make it fair for women and girls.

It would mean they don't need as many volunteers too, so it's less pressure on each event. Won't need 2 x timekeepers, 2 token hander out-ers (?), 6 scanners, token sorters etc. I will feel sorry for the lovely Duke of Edinburgh teens when it happens though, but if parkrun don't care about women then they probably don't care about young people either. Men must come first.

Catiette · Yesterday 08:27

Underthinker · Yesterday 08:09

I think age grading is different to age ranking. If i understand it correctly, age grading compares your run against a wider set of data for runners all over the world, so will be less skewed by a few cheating men in your local parkrun.

Still I dont agree with the idea in general, its just a way of avoiding the actual issue.

Yeah, and that evasiveness is why I think this is so significant.

Someone earlier used the analogy of kids at school having publicly ranked quiz results. There doesn't need to be a medal or prize (what a reductively literal interpretation of competition!) - the reward is quite obviously in the recognition. Similarly, as long as PR ranks runner's, the only possible reason for that is comparison and associated information and pride. And women, therefore, are getting a proportionately worse deal than men. That's discrimination, pure and simple.

For those who say this doesn't matter, that it's a small issue in the scheme of things, I actually have some sympathy. I do get that perspective - and I also kind of respect it as an honest position (unlike the exhausting it's-not-a-race crowd 😂). But I think the school analogy is helpful here, too, in explaining why I think it is an issue - and a big one, at that.

Imagine a school in which there are simple uniform rules which some students flout. And instead of the school asserting that these rules stand, and are important, they instead make accommodations for a minority of students in a cynically manipulative way ("Navy blue is close enough to black anyway, Chloe. Don't worry about it. Nathan! I know you have black trousers at home - go back and get them now! Our uniform is black, and we stand by that! (Chloe, off you pop to English now, love!)"

Now, you may or may not agree with this uniform rules - fine - but the denial that these rules exist, or that there's any argument for them existing in any case, even as the school claims to uphold them.

Just think about how subversive and disruptive to order in the school that is. Think about how that attitude will seep through to everyone and everything to undermine any conception of or faith in rules and order at all. It's a deeply, deeply dangerous, undemocratic approach to take.

And that's how I see Parkrun's approach to this issue, and women's sex-based rights.

If you want to argue that women deserve a different experience to men (and that is what they're getting - many women may not give a shit, but some obviously do, that they can't measure their relative times with the same accuracy: it's undeniable, and the voting shows it)... OK, fine, argue that. But be honest about it!

But this lack of honesty ("It's not a competition, it doesn't matter, what's the fuss? Parkrun say it's not, so it's not! No one cares anyway! It only affects a few people!") is all, to me, utterly corrosive. It degrades sex-based rights in exactly the same way that "Navy is the same as black for Chloe, but not for Nathan" corrodes rules, order and fairness in the school, by promoting a rules-for-thee-but-not-for-me and "anything goes attitude" to them.

How can we expect to win equal health care, and combat rape culture, for our daughters, as long as that attitude - that Chloe matters more than Nathan, but no one's prepared to admit it - is so deeply baked into our way of thinking that people will fight tooth and claw to deny any disadvantage to women for pages of this thread?

Catiette · Yesterday 08:32

igelkott2026 · Yesterday 08:10

You're not age graded against men or male bodied people - the age gradings are an international standard and you are compared with women of the same age group.

If there are male bodied people in the stats they are so diluted that it really isn't an issue, it's not like them taking course records (or the Lia Thomas's of this world taking medals and team places away from women).

If there are male bodied people in the stats they are so diluted that it really isn't an issue, it's not like them taking course records (or the Lia Thomas's of this world taking medals and team places away from women).

This epitomises what I'm saying.

"It's only Chloe and Nathan - there are 2000 other kids in the school and they don't even know Chloe and Nathan. And Chloe and Nathan are in Year 7, so the sixth formers aren't affected, anyway, and they're the ones that really matter!"

No.

If we want a fair school society, and for students people to believe in that, and uphold it, it matters. If we want to argue that no kids should fight in the corridors that nothing can ever justify sidelining women to advantage men, it really does matter - right the way through the school our society.

ETA: I'd also suggest that a bit of give and take is fine if and when it's established that Chloe and Nathan are equal - common sense, flexibility and all that. But the problem is that WE'RE NOT THERE YET. Chloe and Nathan aren't equal. Not anywhere close. And we can see that in the denial about the impact on Nathan (Huh. I also now realise it would have been far clearer as a sex-based rights analogy if Chloe was the one being disadvantaged in the above, not Nathan 😅... but it doesn't matter anyway, as I doubt the it's-not-a-competition-ers will respond...)

FernandoSor · Yesterday 08:39

I suspect what will happen if this actually goes to court and the ruling goes against ParkRun then ParkRun Limited (the company that organises ParkRun globally) would simply move abroad.

I can’t see how the ruling could be enforced against the 1400 individual ParkRuns in the UK. The volunteers at each would have to be sued as individuals which I can’t see happening.

BananaPeels · Yesterday 08:43

FernandoSor · Yesterday 08:39

I suspect what will happen if this actually goes to court and the ruling goes against ParkRun then ParkRun Limited (the company that organises ParkRun globally) would simply move abroad.

I can’t see how the ruling could be enforced against the 1400 individual ParkRuns in the UK. The volunteers at each would have to be sued as individuals which I can’t see happening.

It is nothing to do with the volunteers on the day. When registering people will simply be asked for their sex. That’s it. They will be expected to be honest. If it turns out that they haven’t been and get reported parkrun it the company level then it is their responsibility to investigate and alter the category if necessary. That’s it. I am sure currently if park run currently got wind of a 40 year old running in an over 60’s age category they would correct it. Nobody on the day should be asking people if they are running the correct category.

Catiette · Yesterday 08:49

Yeah, this one works with the uniform analogy, too:

I can’t see how the ruling uniform rules could be enforced against the 1400 individual ParkRuns in the UK 2000 students all day, every day, wherever they are at whatever time. The volunteers at each duty staff, cooks and prefects would have to be sued as individuals taken through a disciplinary which I can’t see happening.

Well no, I can't see it happening, either! Suing the organisers (AKA sacking the dinner lady) would be an extraordinary response.

It's a really quite strange argument for not simply having a rule and expecting most people to follow it. We intervene in the cases where someone is caught not doing it so as to set a standard the vast majority will follow as a result.

That's how the law and rules work, in all cases. It's really quite simple.

Funtime2 · Yesterday 08:57

Bumb13B33 · Yesterday 07:31

I absolutely am not. Parkrun has a well documented ethos which many of their websites advertised. Maybe do a bit of research.

I can say I’m a vegan but if I’m eating roast beef and yorkshires I’m really not

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Catiette · Yesterday 09:04

Funtime2 · Yesterday 08:57

I can say I’m a vegan but if I’m eating roast beef and yorkshires I’m really not

Edited

Exactly. I do think this "I say it, therefore it is" (or "Parkrun says it is, therefore it is!") attitude is also a little scary. We're seeing it more and more, I think - a resistance to facing up to reality, relying on evidence and arguing your case from an honest, good-faith position, in favour of "my truth - MINE!" Absurd accusations of fascist authoritarianism are thrown at TERFs all the time so I'm loathe to use words like that here, but I do find something a bit sinister about it. Democracy relies on open acknowledgement of obvious facts which is what then enables meaningful debate and negotiation of rights. This assertion that "transwomen are women" and "a race that publishes rankings is in no way competitive" does feel rather Orwellian to me: #nodebate, nothing to discuss, nothing to see, byeeeeeee! (to democratic values?)

Anyway, am waxing lyrical and dominating a bit - plus engaging in advanced-level procrastination - so goodbye from me, too, for now at least!

Funtime2 · Yesterday 09:13

igelkott2026 · Yesterday 08:10

You're not age graded against men or male bodied people - the age gradings are an international standard and you are compared with women of the same age group.

If there are male bodied people in the stats they are so diluted that it really isn't an issue, it's not like them taking course records (or the Lia Thomas's of this world taking medals and team places away from women).

What type of women? If parkrun are included in that age data of women it’s skewed and therefore demotivating and meaningless.

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DrBlackbird · Yesterday 09:19

Ah, all the usual tropes…

a witch-hunting hate group
**
extremes on both side for sure
**
witch hunts against trans people

These comments are gold dust serving to highlight just how incredibly strategic men have been in finally landing on the means to ensure women are denied spaces/awards/podiums/refuges/prisons/changing rooms/wards for themselves.

By labelling those means as ‘progressive’ they’ve been able to play off female conditioning to be nice. Only these comments certainly demonstrate that some women are prepared to be not very nice at all… towards other women. Including playing off a trope of witch hunts which ironically were lethal for women.

I think @Helleofabore said: I would suggest that if people are supporting that discrimination, they are not really the inclusive people they think they are. But it is a rare woman who will/can undo the conditioning to see that.

How can we expect to win equal health care, and combat rape culture, for our daughters, as long as that attitude - that Nathan identifying as Chloe matters more than Chloe, but no one's prepared to admit it - is so deeply baked into our way of thinking that people will fight tooth and claw to deny any disadvantage to women for pages of this thread? (Fixed it for you @Catiette 😉).

That is precisely why it was so incredibly strategic of those men to position genderism as progressive. Notice it is always transwomen we end up talking about in relation to impacts on women ie it’s the men that matter. Now they sit back and let the Aunt Lydia’s do all the work for them. Really very strategic.

RunningAndSinging · Yesterday 09:20

Age grades are calculated based on record times for that age and sex I believe so not a group of people but the fastest ever person. Although it can’t be exactly that as older people get over 100%.

But essentially if the world record (for your age and sex) is 15 mins and you get 30 mins then your age grade would be 50%. You would be 50% of your way around the course when the record holder finished.

Funtime2 · Yesterday 09:23

FernandoSor · Yesterday 08:39

I suspect what will happen if this actually goes to court and the ruling goes against ParkRun then ParkRun Limited (the company that organises ParkRun globally) would simply move abroad.

I can’t see how the ruling could be enforced against the 1400 individual ParkRuns in the UK. The volunteers at each would have to be sued as individuals which I can’t see happening.

They can stop any future public funding for a start.

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FernandoSor · Yesterday 09:40

Funtime2 · Yesterday 09:23

They can stop any future public funding for a start.

Ah good point - it gets funding from Sport England right?

Catiette · Yesterday 09:50

RunningAndSinging · Yesterday 09:20

Age grades are calculated based on record times for that age and sex I believe so not a group of people but the fastest ever person. Although it can’t be exactly that as older people get over 100%.

But essentially if the world record (for your age and sex) is 15 mins and you get 30 mins then your age grade would be 50%. You would be 50% of your way around the course when the record holder finished.

Couldn't help posting again. Part ongoing procrastination, but also... Wow. I just googled this to check as it seemed remarkable, given that transwomen are, already, setting new "female" records - sometimes world records - in SO many sports, including multiple records in Parkrun. (And given the proportionate number of women and transwomen in the world, that this is happening to any degree really says it all...)

How could this system be maintained and seen as reliable?

But you're right.

So tens of thousands - hundreds of thousands? - of women could lose their ability to judge their relative performance in a useful, meaningful way using this established standard.

In fact, thinking about it, all women lose this ability in a sense. Because no woman can always know for sure which numbers may belong to transwomen.

All female data is rendered potentially unreliable. While the equivalent male data is straightforwardly, unquestionably accurate.

That's such a stark difference in male/female access and experience.

Funtime2 · Yesterday 10:02

Catiette · Yesterday 09:50

Couldn't help posting again. Part ongoing procrastination, but also... Wow. I just googled this to check as it seemed remarkable, given that transwomen are, already, setting new "female" records - sometimes world records - in SO many sports, including multiple records in Parkrun. (And given the proportionate number of women and transwomen in the world, that this is happening to any degree really says it all...)

How could this system be maintained and seen as reliable?

But you're right.

So tens of thousands - hundreds of thousands? - of women could lose their ability to judge their relative performance in a useful, meaningful way using this established standard.

In fact, thinking about it, all women lose this ability in a sense. Because no woman can always know for sure which numbers may belong to transwomen.

All female data is rendered potentially unreliable. While the equivalent male data is straightforwardly, unquestionably accurate.

That's such a stark difference in male/female access and experience.

Exactly this.

it is very simple.

If there is a need to segregate by sex it must be for good reason. Therefore, the rules should reflect this.

Trans identifying men are welcome in every public space that is mixed sex and men only. Just like all men. They should be treated fairly in all circumstances. So should women.

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IAmBeaIDrinkTea · Yesterday 10:47

Bumb13B33 · Yesterday 07:14

Oh give over, it’s tedious.

It’s not a competition. You can stamp your feet all you like but it isn’t and is widely promoted as a non competitive community, inclusive event.

Don’t like it- jog on, literally!

👏👏👏

Funtime2 · Yesterday 10:56

here @Bumb13B33 @IAmBeaIDrinkTea

Bushy Parkrun was founded by Paul Sinton-Hewitt under its original name Bushy Park Time Trial. The event started on 2 October 2004 with just 13 runners taking part in the inaugural event. The organisers changed the name to UK Time Trial (UKTT) and in October 2008 to Parkrun.

Records

The course record for men of 13 minutes 48 seconds was set on 11 August 2012 and is held by Andrew Baddeley
the previous record was exactly 14 minutes held by Craig Mottram.
Baddeley's time is also the second fastest Parkrun time run anywhere in the world.

The women's record of 15:58 was set on 22 October 2011 by Justina Heslop. The previous record holder was Gladys Chemweno (16:11 on 8 May 2010) who beat Katrina Wootton's women's record of 16 minutes 20 seconds (1 January 2009).

This performance beat parkrun's longest standing record: Olympic Games silver medallist Sonia O'Sullivan had previously held the record since 18 June 2005.

No! it’s not competitive at all……No No lalalala!
Words such as ‘record' and ‘beat'

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IAmBeaIDrinkTea · Yesterday 11:09

The Daily Telegraph reported that "what's clever is that it's not a race against everyone else but a timed run", and that trying to improve your personal best time is a great incentive even for slower runners. The paper further explained that the success of the events is down to them being free and weekly, because it allows people to get into a routine

From the link you just posted - this explains why I like Parkrun so much.
They're free, they're weekly routines, and get everyone out wanting to get fit, you can even walk round if you like, it's for all abilities.
What I can't stand though is competitive nobs trying to change the whole ethos of Parkrun because they're competing against everyone else in their own heads.
Someone upthread mentioned "angry males barging others out of the way" when they're at a Run. Never seen that myself, but appreciate it might have happened to someone else.
Well, this thread is full of people, whether male or female, doing the exact same.
Expecting everyone to bow out of the way to them as they barge through and make Parkrun what they want.

Funtime2 · Yesterday 11:12

@Bumb13B33 @IAmBeaIDrinkTea

How do you have a fastest record if it’s not competitive?
How do you beat a record if it’s not competitive?

How do you not understand that whilst many runners couldn’t care less about winning others do.

It’s not very inclusive to not see things from all views. I understand it might not be competitive for some people, can you accept that it might be for others and that parkrun facilitate this competition by announcing Winners!

Nearly 1000 posters have now disagreed with you on the vote. Is it time to try to see it from all perspectives now?

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Funtime2 · Yesterday 11:15

IAmBeaIDrinkTea · Yesterday 11:09

The Daily Telegraph reported that "what's clever is that it's not a race against everyone else but a timed run", and that trying to improve your personal best time is a great incentive even for slower runners. The paper further explained that the success of the events is down to them being free and weekly, because it allows people to get into a routine

From the link you just posted - this explains why I like Parkrun so much.
They're free, they're weekly routines, and get everyone out wanting to get fit, you can even walk round if you like, it's for all abilities.
What I can't stand though is competitive nobs trying to change the whole ethos of Parkrun because they're competing against everyone else in their own heads.
Someone upthread mentioned "angry males barging others out of the way" when they're at a Run. Never seen that myself, but appreciate it might have happened to someone else.
Well, this thread is full of people, whether male or female, doing the exact same.
Expecting everyone to bow out of the way to them as they barge through and make Parkrun what they want.

I would say the complete opposite, it’s about men holding records as if they have female bodies. Barging women out of the way.

280 times so far.

But I guess you can not understand why that might be demotivating and unfair for SOME women because it doesn’t match how you feel.

Open your mind a little, be progressive and let women have their own category and fair competition

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