To think that women reading erotica, however smutty, is not the same as men watching porn?

[Carla786]

I've seen some posts here and various articles elsewhere speak of women reading smutty books as if it's equivalent to men watching porn.
I can see how if a woman read huge amounts of them they might have unrealistic expectations. How common is this though?

I've had the misfortune to read a few pages of masterpieces like 'Bull Moon Rising' and 'Morning Glory Milking Farm' and I think the 'monster mance' trend is quite grim. I also find the popularity of dark romance including rape & abuse disturbing.

So I agree with some criticisms of romance fiction trends. But isn't equivalent to porn. Porn usually involves real actors, and even if the scene isn't violent, pressure is rife, performers suffer from injuries, men are pressured into using viagra to keep erections going. None of these issues are present in romance fiction.

Romance fiction doesn't lead men to suffer physical harm either. What romance novel has led to men being choked or pressured into anal sex?

I feel that sometimes coverage seems to want to imply that men and women' faults are equivalent. But if one sex is worse at something, men or women, it should be permitted to say that : if that's the reality. And I think porn is clearly worse. This doesn't mean issues with romance fiction shouldn't be discussed, it just means there' no need to equate them

AIBU?

It's all disgusting, IMO.

Not remotely the same (obviously)

No. And men reading erotica is not the same as men watching porn. Because no actual women are hurt in the production of erotica.

Men reading erotica = the same thing as women reading erotica.

Men watching soft-core porn = the same thing as women watching soft-core porn.

Men watching violent porn = the same thing as women watching violent porn.

Yep. Totally agree. I can’t believe the number of people who think porn - today’s porn, not girly mags- is a normal essential part of life.
I mean, even girly mags were sordid and mainly used by teenage boys and grubby old men.

Reading erotica in general isnt the same as watching porn 😄😄

Of course it’s not the same. Words on the page don’t hurt people.

Exactly, another line I hear on some SM forums is that it's about 'controlling male sexuality while promoting female'. Which is nonsense given most women probably have no issue with men reading erotica. Obviously if it's misogynistic plenty would criticise, but many would criticise women reading misogynistic erotica too.

I’ve got no interest in either but of course it’s not remotely the same. You don’t have to worry about anyone doing something they don’t want to in fiction.

Any threads you can point to where this was said? Or an article that you have read?

Both porn and erotica are disgusting but porn is worse.

You are conflating two different things: romance fiction (including erotic romances) and erotica. Erotica is not romantic, not about a relationship, and is more or less equivalent to porn in that its purpose is to get you off. It doesn’t have the same societal damage as the porn industry, but imo, it can be equally damaging to an individual relationship.

Erotic fiction is a subset of the romance genre, which goes all the way from no sex, closed door sex, through to extremely graphic sex, BUT crucially is about a romantic relationship which has to end well. While some erotic fiction may be as explicit as erotica, in my experience, it is much more like an 18 film than a porn film. The primary purpose is emotional, not erotic.

You use terms like ‘smutty’ and bring to the table masterpieces like 'Bull Moon Rising' and 'Morning Glory Milking Farm' and say you also find the popularity of dark romance including rape & abuse disturbing.
Funnily enough there is more erotic fiction than this. I suggest you expand your horizons in the direction of more female oriented material and return to ask the question again.

That's a bit harsh! Is all erotic fiction bad? I think misogynistic stuff and beastiality clearly is but there's plenty that's just normal sex.

Not the same at all.

Whoever is reading the erotica it’s not the same as someone (male or female, although obviously we know it’s nearly always men) watching porn.

As you say, porn has actual actors being exploited in it.

Erotica is a book so all the action takes place in your head.

I know, don't worry! I know that most erotica is not like this.

I was just giving examples of stuff that is bad,,though not as bad as porn. Unfortunately these are written by women and mainly read by them, from what I can see, but surely a minority. I investigated the monster stuff after reading a critical article, but I know this isn't the standard think erotica fans read. Part of the Internet book scene is that very niche stuff can receive disproportionate attention if shocking, and the newspapers sometimes amplify this.

This post for one:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5406417-to-think-most-men-are-filthy-losers?page=14&reply=146994073

Yes and no.

Obviously the real actor element is significant. Though I would note that a lot of television and film now has some pretty smutty elements using real actors and actresses which don't seem to make people look askance as much as you'd think. I suspect the reason women prefer written porn isn't because they are more moral, it's just because they prefer it. If they didn't I doubt they would avoid it more than men.

But in terms of training people to think of sex in a way that is objectifying, I don't think it's any better.

And I think OP you are missing a really important element when you separate out the more questionable trends in written smut for woman. The reason these trends, like pseudo-bestiality, incest, or "dark romance" have become such a thing is because written smut has the same effect or requiring an escalation as the reader becomes habituated. One of the latest dark romances everyone seems to want is basically child pornography, so I am not convinced that women are inclined to put the breaks on more than men do - the numbers reading this stuff are massive. Fans of fantasy now who want real fantasy rather than "fairy porn" are finding it difficult to avoid.

As for it not leading to men getting strangled during sex or the expectation of anal, etc - no, maybe not, but it certainly feeds into these kinds of trends affecting women.

One way in which I find the trend for women a little worse is the self-delusion. Most men seem to realise that porn is basically a kind of vice or potentially a vice, and about sexual satisfaction. But many women seem to think being big readers of smut means they are bookish. And books are good, so what's to worry about?

Thank you
It just sounded as you were taking a fairly selective stance.
FWIW I usually find erotic writing more arousing and imaginative than visual porn

No one is exploited or trafficked in the erotic fiction world. So no they're not even comparable. I don't read erotic fiction not my cup of tea but it's not hurting anyone

are you referring to thus one post on that thread where the poster writes

Just about the only way you have a good chance of making money now in publishing is writing highly sexualized pornography. Lots of stuff there as weird and disturbing as male pornography, lots of weird beastiality-adjacent stuff (sex with dinosaurs, sex with aliens, sex with werewolves.) Lots is rather violent.

Sex with dinosaurs? How does that work.

Won't somebody think of the werewolves??

Thank you, this is interesting.

This bit : ' The reason these trends, like pseudo-bestiality, incest, or "dark romance" have become such a thing is because written smut has the same effect or requiring an escalation as the reader becomes habituated. One of the latest dark romances everyone seems to want is basically child pornography, so I am not convinced that women are inclined to put the breaks on more than men do - the numbers reading this stuff are massive. Fans of fantasy now who want real fantasy rather than "fairy porn" are finding it difficult to avoid.'

• I have thought this is probably the case. I remember 50 Shades being big, that was bad enough. That seems to have been Pandora's Box in a way.

I agree that women aren't necessarily putting the brakes on more. The material does not harm real people as we've said but the kinds of stuff depicted has definitely escalated crazily. I'm a fantasy fan myself and fed up with the romantasy taking over the shelves. I don't classify authors like Maas and Yaros clearly, but they do seem to serve as a gateway drug to extreme material for some women.

This dark romance: can I ask if it involves an underage teen girl being harmed by an older man? I
That seems to be a fairly common theme in these awful books from the little I could stomach googling. The motives for reading this kind of stuff are disturbing : why this need to identify with an abuse victim in something supposedly 'sexy'? It reminds me of the BDSM proponents who argue dubiously that it's all about 'reenacting trauma in a safe way'.

Yes that one.