AIBU to think nursery alone is not enough support for poor parenting/ neglect?

[Scottishmamaagain]

In Scotland so assuming the system will be different to England. In a non professional role have become involved with a family who are under investigation by social work, not physical harm just neglect and I would say failure to provide any sort of stimulation (but don’t want to get into specifics for obvious reasons). One of the children has a funded 2s place at nursery (in Scotland these are only for vulnerable children and SEND etc). Apart from this they seem to be getting no other support from social work, the mother doesn’t seem to be aware of how serious the situation could become and it appears no one has explained where she is falling short. Just seems like social work have got her the nursery space under the idea that child is better off a nursery than at home, but have done very little to improve the situation at home. I get that the child attending nursery will mean other adults will be able to keep an eye on the situation, but the issues have already been highlighted. I also don’t think this is a case of parent struggling and therefore childcare can take some pressure off, it’s more a lack of understanding of what children need in order to develop.

This situation must be replicated across the country. FWIW I am not slagging off social work, they are in survival mode along with a lot of other services. I also see a lot on here that social work are already overworked trying to address physical harm to children and therefore anything else becomes an afterthought. But surely just throwing kids into childcare is not the answer to poor parenting/ neglect. The money used for those funded hours would be better spent on more social workers, parenting classes, sure start etc.

Yanbu but it's a start.

So this mum gets lots of support and help and then thinks, oh parenting is quite easy let’s have another.

I am not saving vulnerable children shouldn’t be protected from useless parents but creating a state dependency to this level is foolish.

How much per hour is nursery funding? Would anyone work as a social worker for the same amount?

It might help if you made some benefits dependent on parenting classes and home inspections, classes where they have to actually attend and be, not exam tested but assessed that they have learnt the necessary skills and importance, responsibility of bringing up a child. That would be more likely to bring long term changes.

I think childcare and schools are supporting children in such a way that it masks quite how bad their home life is. It props the families up just enough to mean no further action is taken. Of course it is great that children are getting the support, but it doesn’t treat the root cause. There are so many children in this situation that I think it’s simply too big to deal with properly. And as a society, I think we don’t want to admit how bad things are. It could really turn society on its head and no one is prepared to do it, even for vulnerable children. Who wants to be the government that addresses that a sizeable percentage of parents are not meeting their children’s needs. They would be told they’re splitting up families and seen as terrible and also the cost implications would be huge. So we carry on, letting children be harmed, pretending it’s not happening, because they got to paint at nursery or they were given a free meal at school or sanitary towels were provided by the pastoral team because parents don’t buy them.

you have explained my point perfectly. Schools and nurseries are doing just enough to stop more intervention. It’s just sticking a plaster on the problem without actually addressing the issue with parents. It also puts schools and nurseries under immense pressure when they should be focusing on education.

I can’t see any mainstream political party being brave enough to tackle this, the outrage at government providing guidance for screen time was a glimpse into this.

I'm also in Scotland. The threshold for social work intervention is so high it's unbelievable. They are over worked and under resourced and children are being failed. It's not the individual social workers fault it's the system they are working within.

But what exactly is the alternative? That’s a genuine not rhetorical question. Modern life is complicated and difficult, child rearing requires mental and physical resources that many people just don’t have. What would the right support look like? The state makes a bad parent and foster care doesn’t seem like a great place to grow up so mass removal would ‘t fix the problem, leaving aside the enormous trauma that would create. Supported living for families who need it? But that requires their consent, and would anyone want to live in a controlled environment like that.

Yanbu if nursery is literally all that happens. I've just done a quick Google though and it said that there is a lot of early help, patenting advice and classes etc that doesn't always need a referral or have a high threshold for referral. Is that not the case? Incredible years was referenced for example, but I don't know if that would help cases of neglect.

The simple answer is I do not know, but the current system isn’t working.

The services should be tailored to each family. This is what the concerns are, this is what we need to see improve, how can we help with that? For some childcare might be answer, if parents are stressed and just need a break (but in my experience above this is not the case, having your child in childcare for 30 hours a week doesn’t just magically make them a better parent for the rest of the time).

Some need it spelt out for them clearly, your children need to have clothes that fit which are cleaned, they need a rough routine with a bedtime that allows them to attend school/nursery in the morning, they need stimulation that isn’t from a screen, they need to be taken to public places so they can see and interact with the outside world. You need to help health visitors etc identify gaps in their development and follow the recommended course of action to help. What they might benefit from is more time with a social worker who can show them what this looks like, puts a plan in place with follow up to ensure improvements are being made.

It seems like a lot of parents think because their kids are fed and have a roof over their heads their job is done.

"Just neglect" causes truama to the brain!! These children will have lifelong devolopemental issues as a result of this shitty parenting. It pisses me off greatly. There are shedloads of kids at school who have additional support needs as a direct result of neglectful parents.
The social work system in Scotland is overwhelmed.
Very worrying times

Apologies for using the word ‘just’, I have been shocked at the neglect i have seen in this example and alarmed that social work don’t seem to be taking it seriously enough.

It seems like that is the attitude of social work though unfortunately. They are too busy dealing with kids getting hurt by their parents to spend time on cases of neglect.

And yes I see the long term issues this will be causing the kids, one of them is older and I am struggling to see how they can ever contribute to society unless there are big changes at home.

Sorry, I just don't think a lot of people realise the damage caused by neglect. It's depressing though, isn't it? Not interacting with your baby, even not smiling at them or talking to them causes brain injury. Schools, sw, society is struggling to cope as a result of lazy parenting.
I think when you are pregnant it should be mandatory to go to parenting classes and be educated on the effects of truama that is caused to the child by not fully engaging with your baby.
We need to do something, don't we?

Think these ideas in your last paragraph sound good. Also connects Mums in the local area for moral support which can have a positive impact on their wellbeing, gives their week structure and learning new skills too.

Which could possibly impact pip for anxiety claims in the future, as in lowering the claims as theyve had a productive and supportive time and can then move onto education or employment.

Yes I think community and mums meeting other mums is only a positive.

I loved baby classes and buggy walks etc. but did find the demographic was quite middle class and I live in a town that does have quite a lot of deprivation as well. I always wondered where mums who maybe didn’t work etc were with their kids.

I found it so good to be amongst other mums not only for the solidarity in going through the same challenges, but bouncing ideas off each other, seeing the way other people did things, and probably controversially comparing milestones etc. like if someone’s baby was born with in weeks of mine but way ahead in milestones it might make me think is that something to be worried about, will I phone the health visitor etc. Whereas raising your child in isolation with only a few family members around means those opportunities are limited.

Health visitors could be better here, and recommend groups to go to. I always made a point of telling mine the ones I attended and she always wrote them down to tell other mums who she thought might appreciate it. Then again health visitors are also in survival mode, I think if everything is assumed to be fine you only get 3 in person visits in the first year?

Obviously this is rather sexist as well putting this all on mums, dads also need to step up so much more in these situations, and you can almost guarantee that in a situation where a mother isn’t doing a great job she will still normally be doing more than the dad.

OP are you sure it's neglect rather than a lack of money ? Maybe she doesn't have the income to buy new clothes and get out and about ?

I agree that some parents need the basics of parenting spelt out to them. They may just raise their children how they were raised and that may not be the best and so the trauma continues into the next generation. If you’re interested in child development then you’ll seek out the information but those who don’t give it a second thought won’t even think about it until someone tells them directly to their face.

I also think it’s crazy that if you’re child doesn’t go to pre school or nursery they will go from their 2 year review all the way to school at 4/5 years old having not seen a health visitor. The development, or lack of, in that time can be massive and those children that were already falling behind will have a real job of trying to play catch up with their peers

There's lots of local Home-Start charities. These can be really helpful in terms of modelling and helping parents learn skills and build the confidence to get involved in what's available in their community etc.

Agree that early 2s and expanded childcare are in some cases just masking the problem. Far better to empower parents but that takes time and is not as easy to scale using a one-size fits all approach, and gives power to people instead of the state.

In addition to the suggestions made here already, if I had the funds I would also offer all parents-to-be some kind of counselling to help them consider what kind of parents they want to be and the barriers to that. I know that probably sounds quite hippy dippy but I think becoming a parent is such a huge life change and often naturally leads to reflection but sometimes after bad habits have set in; good support early on could help people be much better parents. It's not just about having the skills and knowledge but being in a position to use them. Addressing poverty of course would help too.

I would be interested to know what people think the alternatives are

Children’s Centres and Sure Start Centres.

Parents of vulnerable 2s being able to go (or forcibly enrolled) in stay and plays where they are in a group of 1 practitioner and ~3 parents with similar aged children and similar circumstances to receive education and reassurance about parenting. This used to be what was available for vulnerable under 3s and the SNP have replaced it with just taking the children out of the home for up to 11 hours a day.

I completely agree with OP that it is not the answer and leaves the parent-child relationship in a vicious cycle. The extension of the hours was claimed to be for safeguarding reasons. If their home is so insecure that they need an extra 5 hours of Nursery, why on Earth do they live there?

Children’s centres still exist, and family hubs, but people have to want to go to them and want to engage. That’s the issue really. And even with nursery, if the parent doesn’t bring them then what do you do? It isn’t compulsory, after all.

Parents are the parents. Some people do have crap parents. Yes, as a society, we want to ensure that children are not abused or neglected. But social workers can’t be parents. They can’t, in the end, replace crap parenting. They can’t make up for crap parents. Sometimes friends or family members can help a bit, but the reality is that life isn’t fair and the parents you get is one of those great unfairnesses we can’t prevent.

All children get fertility microchipped, then when they become competant adults are assessed for child-rearing suitability, then chip gets removed.
No?

Assuming that’s serious 😂 No.

Re clothes this wasn’t specific to the situation, or at least I haven’t seen it.

In terms of getting out and about, the mum is unwilling to take them out of the house at all unless facilitated by someone else. For example doesn’t want to take them to the park, library or even cheap days like free museums which the cost would be public transport and a picnic. I was hoping that the better weather would improve things and she would be more willing to go out with them but it doesn’t seem to be the case. This isn’t her being a hermit either she is perfectly capable of getting out herself on public transport when kids are at school/ nursery.

the mum is unwilling to take them out of the house at all unless facilitated by someone else
so she’s lazy and doesn’t prioritise her kids, but of course that’s got to be everyone else’s fault hasn’t it! 🙄

How many children does she need to take out on public transport? Are any of them SEN because that can really be a nightmare if you add a 2 year old to the mix.