AIBU to think nursery alone is not enough support for poor parenting/ neglect?

[Scottishmamaagain]

In Scotland so assuming the system will be different to England. In a non professional role have become involved with a family who are under investigation by social work, not physical harm just neglect and I would say failure to provide any sort of stimulation (but don’t want to get into specifics for obvious reasons). One of the children has a funded 2s place at nursery (in Scotland these are only for vulnerable children and SEND etc). Apart from this they seem to be getting no other support from social work, the mother doesn’t seem to be aware of how serious the situation could become and it appears no one has explained where she is falling short. Just seems like social work have got her the nursery space under the idea that child is better off a nursery than at home, but have done very little to improve the situation at home. I get that the child attending nursery will mean other adults will be able to keep an eye on the situation, but the issues have already been highlighted. I also don’t think this is a case of parent struggling and therefore childcare can take some pressure off, it’s more a lack of understanding of what children need in order to develop.

This situation must be replicated across the country. FWIW I am not slagging off social work, they are in survival mode along with a lot of other services. I also see a lot on here that social work are already overworked trying to address physical harm to children and therefore anything else becomes an afterthought. But surely just throwing kids into childcare is not the answer to poor parenting/ neglect. The money used for those funded hours would be better spent on more social workers, parenting classes, sure start etc.

"It seems like a lot of parents think because their kids are fed and have a roof over their heads their job is done."

This has always been the case.

I don’t disagree with you. But I don’t just thinking through img childcare at it is going make her a better parent.

I mean the extreme, Orwellian solution is any woman at her booking in appointment has to submit to a compulsory assessment and subsequent classes, courses, monitoring etc which, if failed, results in the removal of the child at birth to be raised in a central, state facility...an orphanage essentially. Unless another relative, the father or grandparents could pass the requisite assessments.

Short of that, its an ongoing patchwork as it currently is. Maybe a few less 'no judgement' comments and returning to a time when people took pride in their and their kids appearance and what others thought would also help. One of the most effective motivators is peer pressure. If its not seen as acceptable to parent this way in some circles, it might be less common. I know Ill get flamed for this but I'm happy to stand by an opinion that notwithstanding learning difficulties (which would precipitate SS anyway) everyone can get out of pj's in the morning, go to charities and free cycle for basics. Get free books from libraries. There may be a tiny number for whom this is genuinely impossible but not the numbers we see in neglectful circumstances.

I don’t really want to go into specifics as feel like it’s sharing stuff I shouldn’t be. But average number of children, and from my experience the kids are almost very subdued when taken out the house because it’s obviously not something they do much of and usually have a screen in front of them.

Only half joking 😂

Maybe it depends on your area and is a postcode lottery but there is quite a bit of support available where we are, although you do have to willingly engage once signposted obviously.

We have local family hubs which run free play sessions 3 days a week, the same hubs also run classes on parenting for different ages, weaning sessions, sessions on development and how to encourage meeting certain milestones and longer courses on childhood development etc. Health Visitor can refer to these sessions but of course it’s then on the parent to turn up however it’s better than nothing I suppose. There are also people working under the actual HV who attend those struggling and help them with set skills etc, I know a lady who struggles massively with her first baby and someone from the HV team came every other week and supported her a lot which she was very grateful for.

You can’t force someone to be a good parent but I think the way things are set up here at least provides opportunities to learn and do better rather than just sticking a child in childcare for 2 days a week.

They should enforce parenting classes upon neglectful parents!
No reason or them not to attend, especially as they are in receipt of free childcare.
If they fail to attend then social work interventions need to begin and those who willfully neglect their children should most certainly have them removed.

There are loads of families like this, though. Someone on our street has remarked several times about my own what they presumably think is ostentatiously middle-class parenting, with weekends filled with museum visits, playgrounds, cafes, train and bus trips, soft play etc. I feel a bit sorry for her kids, they’re wonderful when they come over to play but they’re just in the house otherwise.

I think this is the problem it’s voluntary, and the take up will be from mums already anxious to ensure they are doing the right things. I remember I went to the weaning one and didn’t learn anything new as I’d been googling/ reading books about it for weeks by that point. And it was the usual cohort from the baby groups I attended who I saw there.

There needs to be more pressure from social work/ HVs to attend these to families they have concerns about. Like ‘I saw you didn’t make the last session, is there a reason for that? I have booked you onto the next one.’ Just that little bit of pressure and follow up might make the difference and get them to go.

A lot of the neglect you describe is lazy parenting such as too much screen time, not brushing teeth or having good food and bedtime routines. Some parents could have all the support in the world and still be neglectful in lots of ways. What would happen when all the support still didn’t improve the parenting, should children be removed from parents for these reasons? It’s a very complex issue and I think free childcare is a good place to start and benefits the child

Childcare won’t make her a better parent, it will bring other adults who have eyes on the children, give the children opportunities for socialisation and activity and will give mum space if she’s struggling. It’s a first stage intervention in a long list of interventions, each of which need to be tried and shown to be effective or not.

In Scotland the majority of children and family social work teams operate at around 75% capacity, at best. Social workers are leaving the profession within 6 years of qualification such are the pressures and demands. Resourcing (not just funding but training and supervision) are at critical levels, there’s a huge issue with recruitment and retention - more so than in other professions with a much higher profile.

That means there’s hardly capacity for local authorities to meet their statutory protection duties, never mind early intervention - it just doesn’t happen because there’s no one to do it. Social workers have high case loads which are crisis driven. It shouldn’t be that way but no one campaigns for social workers, unless there’s a tragedy at which point folk start baying for blood.

It would be great if social workers could do all the direct work needed with parents, and would save money in more intensive support down the line, but no one wants to pay for it.

I live in Canada where daycare is very heavily subsidized (i.e. $7 a day) from under aged one.

It's a government run scheme and they have certain targets to meet - the food that they provide, learning levels, motor skill development etc etc.

The vast majority of people from all echelons of society put their kids in this daycare.

Which means that even if the home life is awful, the child is getting fed, learning language, and playing outside, socialising.

It in no way replaces a stimulating home environment, but it's certainly not a bad compromise

Google is free. Parents have 9 months to prepare and learn about the basics about babies and children. Modern life is complicated if you make it so.

What do you think social workers spend their days doing that they have time to track every parent on their case load, know what they’ve attended or not and be able to rebook a parent into a class.

The last time I was in practice, my case load was such that I had a total of 90 minutes per week per child, for everything needed in that case load. So home visits, professionals meetings, child observations, reviewing case notes, my own case recording, report writing, case conferences and court attendance, and prep for all of these. And things have worsened since I left direct practice.

As I said my OP this wasn’t having a pop at social work. I know how over worked they are and the priority needs to be children at the highest risk. As with health visiting they are in survival mode as well. The point of this post was something needs to be done about that, I’m not seeing any of the big parties making a deal about it in this campaign.

I think the problem is a society we don’t want to admit the scale of this problem and acknowledge how many children are be failed due to poor parenting/ neglect. Once that’s acknowledged we can start to think about the best ways to tackle it. I just don’t see the appetite for it though, you only have to look at the social media posts from the SNP about this starting school bag, and all the comments are people saying ‘what about pensioners who have worked their whole lives’ it seems as a society we don’t value children and the quality of their upbringing.

The starting school bag is a nonsense though, the vast majority of children have what they need for starting school, better to focus on those that don’t. The Scottish government approach is to consistently slap a sticking plaster on things. They know the issues in social workers and pass the buck to local authorities, they over legislate and under resource, and they know that’s what they’re doing.

I’d love to see a return to social workers practice rooted in long term, quality relationships with families but it won’t happen under any iteration of the current government. But at least the wean has a school bag.

The threshold for SS is high everywhere. Getting a funded nursery place is the intervention. The nursery are now tasked with the mental/physical welfare of the child and reporting any concerns. There are so many children who should be removed from their parent for their welfare/safety, but the threshold for that is extremely high, and besides, SS do not have the time/money/foster carers to facilitate any of this.

I don’t disagree with you. I rolled my eyes when I saw it. My child certainly doesn’t need any more books and stationary. It’s the same as the baby box (it’s all stuff you can get second hand or cheaply).

I would much rather that money was being spent on stuff like social work, health visiting, sure start, even better breastfeeding support or funding towards things like sling libraries. But I don’t think there’s an appetite for that.

Children’s centres have been slashed. Before the coalition government there was at least 1 or 2 per secondary school catchment. Now my whole city has 3 and they are for extreme cases.

Nurseries often carry out home visits on vulnerable children who do not attend.

There is high quality long term evidence that nursery access does make a big difference to children from disadvantaged homes, whereas the other stuff suggested to be funded instead can be quite hit or miss.

The main problem with poor parenting/neglect is that the reasons this happens are hugely complex. It's not as simple as giving people advice (most of the time) and to be totally honest, I would be extremely surprised if genuinely nobody has given her advice. My experience is usually that the person is given advice but they hear it as criticism. Or it happens as part of a larger conversation, and they remember other parts of the conversation but miss/forget the advice. Or they dismiss it, thinking it doesn't apply to them and then forget the interaction. Or they do take it on board but because of various (usually complex) reasons, they are unable to implement it for very long or at all. For similarly complex reasons they may be unreliable narrators. Seeming unaware of basic parenting ideas does not mean that nobody has ever told her, and on some level, finding out what constitutes reasonable parenting is also part of the responsibility of a parent.

Nursery will give children experience of a structured, routine-led environment, exposure to other children and adults for social development and experiences, plenty of non-screen related stimulation and time to play and explore with different toys/environments/experiences. They will be read to and counted with and spoken with and listened to. They will be offered at least one solid meal. These things are all hugely important for children and most children DO get these things at home, thankfully. But for the children who don't get these things at home, the chance to experience them at nursery gives them a huge boost. The difference between getting some experience of these things vs a lot of experience of these things is much smaller than the difference between getting some experience vs no/very little experience. That difference is huge.

For some parents unfortunately you can counsel and advise them as much as you want but they won't change their behaviour. Most people, even if they have very little experience with children or experienced neglect in their own childhood etc know that there are parenting books, websites, support groups and will use these if they need to.

I do know what you mean about supporting the whole family. In an ideal world this would be better, and I think it is a great shame that it is not possible or practical to offer this support but realistically, I think you are naive about the sheer amount of support and time and input which would be necessary to make a real difference. A meeting and plan made with a social worker is unlikely to be anywhere near enough. It might help in some cases, but it probably needs much more intensive 1:1 daily support, for periods of weeks at a time, over years. And even then, it might not be enough.

I don't know if you ever saw the old Supernanny programmes. I realise they are programmes made for entertainment, and TBH I haven't ever been the biggest fan, but the reason I mention them is that she did often implement this kind of advice - looking at things like bedtimes and parents spending quality time with their kids. I watched an interview with her recently where she talked a bit about the behind the scenes on the show and two things I hadn't realised was that she actually spent 200 hours with each family, and that she had veto power over which families she worked with and she tried to select for people who actually wanted help (rather than wanting to be on TV). Obviously it's edited down to show the most dramatic angle and it's very heavy on the "Super Nanny cracks the naughtiest kids ever!!" but watching some of the older programmes through the lens of this you can see that what she is doing is really parent training, not child training. And yet in every programme, even when the parents genuinely want and invite the input, even though they have had someone follow them round 24/7 making observations and providing coaching of their parenting right there in the moment, they always fall out of the routine, they always get things wrong thinking they are getting it right, they always miss really crucial steps, it generally takes a lot more coaching and support to get things to a better place, probably realistically much more than the 200 hours or whatever it was.

It's really hard for people to change habits. It takes a lot more than some instructions and advice. The person has to really want to change and believe in the value of the change and understand why it will help, and possibly also understand why they were doing it differently before. For parenting they also have to be prepared to deal with pushback from children who tend to like the idea of getting unlimited screen time and junk food and no bedtimes, and will fight changes like this even if once they are used to the new rules they are ultimately happier. And all of this while the problems which were underlying their difficulties in managing basic parenting responsibilities in the first place probably haven't gone away or been addressed. And then remember this is someone coming in who has not been invited, but an authority, saying you must do this/that/the other. Not all parents are going to agree with the ideas that the social worker has about good parenting. Even amongst good, involved, educated parents there can be raging debates about topics like co-sleeping vs sleep training, for example.

OTOH you can fund childcare and give children a few hours' experience each day of the critical things that they need. It works, immediately, it provides measurable benefit to the children whether the parents get their shit together or not. Parents accept it because it is not seen as a direct criticism of them. It's absolutely a sticking plaster, but the metaphor for what is needed is complicated reconstructive surgery, and that isn't realistically possible, so a sticking plaster will have to do.

If we are serious about this then we have to consider some radical interventions as ultimately it boils down to the children's rights to a decent childhood free of neglect or worse versus the adults rights to be parents.

I think there is often a naive assumption that the link between poverty and poor outcomes is causal. That it's just the lack of money within a household that's causing the issues and if you could just lift the family out of poverty then everything would be much better. In my experience the reality is far more nuanced than this and their intergenerational cycles to break, basic life and parenting skills to be learnt and cultural norms to challenge.

I know a few families like the one you describe OP and the thing I find most frustrating is that the biggest issue for most of them is simply the chaotic way in which they live. They simply don't seem capable of getting themselves into a decent routine that would support raising children and the chaos that surrounds them is so damaging to the children. Nobody can find anything in the house, mealtimes are all over the place, pets aren't looked after properly and are eating/peeing on clothes.... Money won't fix this

And when was this wonderful age where children were protected and prioritised, never dirty, cold, neglected or under stimulated?

Tbh I didn’t really like taking my two out either. I did, because the alternative (staying home with them) was worse! But I can quite see how if I’d been reliant on public transport it would have been easier not to bother. I lost my confidence when dd was a newborn and I couldn’t get ds to leave a park.

I don't think I said that there was a golden age ...there have always been neglected children. But you see it all the time on here...dont judge, its a snapshot, you dont know. Its amazing the lengths people will go to to avoid saying yeah, thats shit, lazy parenting and its not always a snapshot, there isn't always SEN, usually people haven't just been fired or lost a parent or been divorced. Every thread where someone says 'I saw child being ignored on bus/ cafe etc and given a phone' is FULL of excuses and a forensic pick apart of the OPs circumstances rather than an honest discussion about how we actually do know that for loads of kids its the default and the more we learn about dopamine addiction and brain plasticity the worse it is. But dont judge cos reasons.

Local council services are in their knees. When I had my dc (in Scotland) there were more HV home visits and more children’s centres with mum & baby classes etc. HV and SS would very strongly encourage parents they were concerned about to attend. And everything was free for those targeted parents.
We have a HUGE crisis in local govt funding in Scotland and I believe it’s worse in England (it certainly is in the area I work in).

While I agree with you to some extent. The literacy trust estimate is 1:10 kids have never owned a book so the book bugs bags are fantastic. They can’t just give them to the people who need them most as it would be hard to identify and seen as stigmatising. If they have to give out 9 that aren’t needed to get that one kid then it’s probably still economical because publishers etc donate the books or supply then at extremely low cost.