To think that women being unpleasant to other women is not automatically internalised misogyny?

[Carla786]

I see this a lot on FWR and in other places.
It certainly can be, but it seems a cop-out to say it is always the cause. It's not anti-feminist to say that women can be cruel to each other for other reasons, just as men can : intrasexual competition, insecurity, narcissism etc

AIBU?

Women get rape threats in UK. Is that the case for the male MPs too?

Yes, it's the rape and death threats we've had here that seem different; I'm not sure if the UK has the same issues with those.

Do you think, then, that women are more likely to be unpleasant than men?

It depends if you're talking about SA (that would be men) or physical and emotional abuse (women).

Buggery? I don't think same sex relationships that were quite common in boys' boarding schools were necessarily abusive.

Often they probably were though. Stephen Fry's autobiography is only one disturbing example.

Yes,I'm Gen Z, and at my girls' school we had a popular group a bit like that. A few people had very few friends. Most had a medium number.

I read that this kind of mix is fairly typical- a popular group of about 10%, then 5%, maybe more, with few or no friends, and the rest somewhere in the middle.

I know a lot of people have awful experiences at school but I don't think the majority experience school like Mean Girls or Heathers.

Good post. I agree especially with the point about coed vs single sex.

Otoh I've heard coed advocates argue that coed can tamp down both boys' physical bullying and girls' relational aggression. I'm not sure if there's studies on that or not. Obviously other factors will come into play as well.

Yes, I think a lot of girl-girl bullying can be about hierarchy within the group rather than male approval. I'm sorry you had such horrible experiences. 💐

Can I ask what country or at least what continent you were in? I understand if you'd rather not say.

On SM this is much more likely than public.

From what I've read in accounts from boys in British boarding schools, and seen in the news in my own country, I think penetrative hazing as well as other sexual assault, is a not infrequent occurrence in all-boys schools. Perhaps not the norm, but still relatively common. I can't seem to find any clear stats on it, though.

I hope not....😢 Gruesome hazing can certainly take place in US frats now, why not other places?

Can I ask what country you are in? Or roughly what area? I understand if not.

There was a thread on here recently about how girls fall out at school. Girls being cruel to each other etc.

It was full of teachers agreeing and pointing out that Y9 is the worst. It was seen as a thing that happened to girls. Not boys. Were the teachers being misogynistic or just observing?

New Zealand :) And incidentally, going to co-ed high school in the early 00's, and going to several different high schools, I found there were definite cliques, but also a lot of variance between regions.

In areas where people were lower income, the nerdy or posher kids got picked on more, as well as 'odd' kids, and the 'popular' kids were generally sporty or from low income families with some reverse snobbery going on, and a lot of gang culture. There was a lot more physical bullying and homophobia, and kids tended to divide more into single sex friend groups with some crossover.

In more affluent areas, nerdy and odd kids were still picked on, but more socially ostracised than physically bullied, and 'theatre/band' kids were relatively well-liked, with the 'popular' kids being higher income, and either sporty or academic (without being nerdy). There was much less homophobia, too, and friend groups tended to be mixed sex more often.

I noticed that while friendship dramas happened with both sexes, girls did tend to be more vocal about falling out with each other and talk to friends about it, and boys tended to just shut up about it and just avoid each other - which possibly had the effect of such things blowing over quicker?

It's hard to know, honestly. Possibly the girls are playing into stereotypes, resulting in more of that kind of behaviour. Or the boys are falling out (but as I mentioned above) less prone to making a fuss about it, meaning it's less obvious to outside observers.

However, any observations a person makes are made through their own social lens.

For instance, people think that women talk more than men, when really studies show they're fairly equally talkative, and one study showed "women’s contributions were viewed as “equally balanced” when women spoke 25% of the time or less. When women spoke as little as 30% of the time or more, they were perceived as dominating the conversation."

So, observations made by people are filtered through their own preconceived expectations, and sometimes wrong. Which means perhaps teachers are right about yr 9 girls having a particularly nasty stage, or perhaps they're overlooking or excusing the boys' drama, and subconsciously over-emphasising the girls'. It's difficult to say.

I couldn't say for sure but historically women have always preferred to have a male as a boss than another woman whilst men have had less preference. There was a thread a while back with a study linked. It had 500,000 respondents.

It also linked another study that concluded that men collaborate better than women do at work and a man/woman collaboration will usually work better than two women. Also that women are less likely to help another woman if she is senior to them.

I don't like to make sweeping statements based on studies as there are so many factors involved but there defo do seem to be different dynamics at play between the sexes.

But all that shows is that people are more comfortable with the sexist stereotype of 'a man in charge' - in fact, in practice, women are more effective leaders than men by all metrics.

Meanwhile, in terms of much workplace collaboration, mixed sex teams do seem to do best, but I haven't found any studies showing that men collaborate better together than women.

But interestingly, in this study, when paired with someone whose sex the participant didn't know and asked to complete both competitive and cooperative tasks, "both men and women performed better when paired with somebody from their own gender—with the exception of the men's performance in the verbal task, which was not affected by the gender of their counterpart."

Regardless, I'm not sure what any of that has to do with nastiness. As studies make clear, boys are equally likely to be socially aggressive, as well as being more likely to be physically aggressive, and far more than 'five men in a million' are 'nasty pieces of work'.

You're very clearly holding massively different standards for men and women. On the one hand, you've framed all men (except murderers!) as automatically lovely which is patently untrue, and then on the other, you've demonised non-murdering women as 'nasty'.

It's very strange.

Agree with most of this : I'd also argue that I'm not sure if there's that much evidence overall that women prefer male bosses. Some studies say yes, others say overall both men and women aren't that fussed about boss' sex.

But all that shows is that people are more comfortable with the sexist stereotype of 'a man in charge'.

I don't think we can make that assumption. I've lost count of the number of times I've read posters on here saying they've been bullied much worse by other women.

On the one hand, you've framed all men (except murderers!) as automatically lovely.

I'm not sure which post of mine this is referring to. Can you direct me to it or quote it for clarity?

From Google AI...

Surveys, particularly from Gallup, have historically shown that when a gender preference exists, a significant portion of women prefer a male boss over a female boss. Cited reasons include perceptions of less office drama, more direct communication, and a desire to avoid the "queen bee" syndrome, though many employees, in general, report having no preference.

Key Findings on Gender Preference:

• Survey Data: Research indicates that women often show a stronger preference for male bosses than men do. For example, in a 2014 study, 40% of women surveyed preferred a male boss, compared to only 27% who preferred a female boss.

• Declining Preference: While a preference for male bosses exists, studies suggest this preference is declining, and the gap between preferences for male and female bosses has begun to close in more recent years.

Reasons for Preference:

• Less Conflict/Politics: Some female employees perceive that female managers may be more prone to creating difficult work environments or bringing emotional baggage into the office, making them prefer the perceived neutrality of a male leader.
• "Queen Bee" Syndrome: A fear of being "queen bee-ed"—where a senior woman fails to support, or even undermines, junior women—is often cited.
• Management Style: Some women find male bosses to be more direct, leading to less ambiguity and, in their view, less "office politics".

Workplace Contexts:

• Female-Dominated Fields: In fields like education, which are predominantly female, some studies have noted a preference for male principals, often citing a desire to avoid intense internal politics among female staff.
• Long-Term Workforce Participants: Research suggests that the longer a woman is in the workforce, the less likely she is to explicitly prefer a female boss.

Anecdotes from people drawn to a thread with a title like this, so self-selecting, aren't data. The people who say they've been bullied worse by women do seem to be a definite minority, as well.

Even your last post above using the AI seems to indicate that WHEN there is a gender preference (not often), women preferring male bosses is based entirely on sexist perceptions, not reality.

Which brings me to: I also have to wonder how sexism is affecting the lens of a woman who says women have treated her worse than men. It can happen, of course, but if we're talking anecdotally, I know a woman who has been treated terribly by men, but will always make excuses for them – and instead direct her anger at women. She's utterly blinkered.

And the comment in which you said five men in a million will commit murder but you bet a lot more than five women in every 100 are nasty pieces of work. What a bizarre statement. What were you trying to even say? The two things aren't related at all – unless you think that men aren't nasty unless they're murdering?

You seem to be making a lot of unsubstantiated claims.

Even your last post above using the AI seems to indicate that WHEN there is a gender preference (not often),

Where does my post indicate that preferences are 'not often' held? The referenced study mentions that almost 70% of women have a preference.

The people who say they've been bullied worse by women do seem to be a definite minority, as well.

How did you arrive at this conclusion? The fact so many people talk about 'queen bee syndrome' and 'mean girl mentalities' would suggest otherwise.

Which brings me to: I also have to wonder how sexism is affecting the lens of a woman who says women have treated her worse than men. It can happen, of course, but if we're talking anecdotally, I know a woman who has been treated terribly by men, but will always make excuses for them – and instead direct her anger at women. She's utterly blinkered.

If would've been more concise just to use the two words 'internalised misogyny'. The goto feminist bingo phrase to dismiss the opinions of women that don't agree with them.

If a woman has been bullied by more females than males and says as much it's nothing to do with her 'lens'. She's not a telescope lol.

And the comment in which you said five men in a million will commit murder but you bet a lot more than five women in every 100 are nasty pieces of work. What a bizarre statement. What were you trying to even say? The two things aren't related at all – unless you think that men aren't nasty unless they're murdering?

It seems you've finally got my point. It's ridiculous to try and use male murderers as some kind of gotcha each time somebody calls out women's behaviour. As you say, they're not related at all. Femicide is an extremely rare crime.

I agree that the term can be overused, OP. However, overall I think women are held to a much higher social standard, and plenty of the comments in this thread exemplify that.

Discussions of women being "nastier", for instance, based on the behaviour of year 9s. I went to an all girls school and yes, some behaviour can be vicious. But those are just trivial anecdotes now. I'm infinitely less affected by that type of behaviour than the pervasive intimidation by men in everyday life. It's probably a weekly occurrence (at a minimum) that a male stranger takes it upon himself to remonstrate with me something utterly banal he wouldn't dare raise with another man. And that's obviously just the tip of the iceberg before you get into real violence.

Sorry , haven’t been on the thread for a while. It was an EE country, deeply entrenched in gender roles and sexism, which deeply influenced our world views. The adults were 100% worse. I could give awful examples of male behaviours though (I was a really unlucky kid/teen), which were bad enough on their own , but made so much worse by the adults/society/mentality. Ended up myself quite a “pick me “ girl as a way of self protection and because everything was such a mind fuck , I didn’t know what way was up. It took years to adjust my thinking and see them for what they were/are. I’m sure I still have tendencies, but getting there.