To think that women being unpleasant to other women is not automatically internalised misogyny?

[Carla786]

I see this a lot on FWR and in other places.
It certainly can be, but it seems a cop-out to say it is always the cause. It's not anti-feminist to say that women can be cruel to each other for other reasons, just as men can : intrasexual competition, insecurity, narcissism etc

AIBU?

@OtterlyAstounding Men have fewer things like that to adhere to, but there are many things I'm sure they do purely because of social norms, and not because of any innate desire to do so.

This one has gone now but certainly when I was establishing my own career, a man would not have gone to a job interview with a bank, retailer, etc wearing a beard. And nobody would go to any white collar workplace with stubble.

I wonder what has taken the place of that unwritten culture rule for men?

I agree completely.

women can and do insult each other for a wide range of reasons - entertainment, because they’re having a bad day, because they find someone annoying, because they want attention from that person. I think saying it’s always about a man and patriarchy is a little bit misogynistic in itself. What about lesbians falling out over the pets in a break up? To call that internalised misogyny is misogynistic in itself because it says all female disputes are about a man.

No, ‘pick me’ is really not used like that. It’s used - certainly on Mumsnet - by certain posters every time a woman has a different opinion to them, often on the most trivial of matters.

I’ve been called ‘pick me’ on Mumsnet for liking football and pubs, for example, and for liking certain types of sex. Because apparently those are nasty horrid man-things that women only pretend to like to please men.

Even if women were defending ‘obnoxious male behaviour’ it would still be misogynistic to assume that women who disagree with you somehow must automatically have male approval as their motivation. Even women you dislike are still perfectly capable of thinking for themselves without seeking male approval. It’s fundamentally misogynistic to assume otherwise.

Yes, I agree that's reasonable.

I suppose I was talking about how the phrase/concept is sometimes misunderstood, and especially on MN. As I said, I've been told off for criticising a woman simply because I'm a woman and she was a woman!

Quite!

This is another instance of how some MN-ers get these concepts wrong and throw accusations all over the place without understanding them. I imagine they give themselves brownie points for taking more offence than other pps - it makes them a better person, after all!😀

I have also noticed the younger generation of young adults seem to be kinder to each other

😂 Well, it's certainly true that people get concepts wrong - all over the place, not just on Mumsnet!

I'm less sure about @BauhausOfEliott's main points, though. I don't read every thread; I can't say she's never been unjustly called a 'pick me' for liking football. I have seen it, more than once, when a woman boasts about preferring male company, male-coded pursuits, and finding women bitchy or shallow, etc. That's plain old misogyny - 'internalised' because she herself is female.

The BDSM debate is too big to deal with in half a post. I feel it's inherently misogynistic, having come to this conclusion after years of consideration. It's also entwined with a lot of deep psychological factors that probably couldn't be untangled outside a therapy room.

Casual sex is an interesting one. I think it's often contentious because of differing styles of sexuality. I've enjoyed a lot of social sex in my time, entirely without thought of developing relationships. While I tried to choose wisely, I didn't care whether these brief acquaintances respected me afterwards. Many women and men need emotional involvement to have good sex: there's no right or wrong to this, only what's right for the individuals.

Putting out in hopes of being loved is obviously harmful, and it does tend to be women getting hurt. They have most likely been manipulated by patriarchal ideas. Few of them, imo, are suffering internalised misogyny but are plain victims of patriarchy.

I think a lot of PPs have missed the point that, if a woman's rude to you about your perceived failure to meet patriarchal standards for women, then she is the one with internalised misogyny. If you then conclude that all women are mean bitches, you've joined her in internalising misogyny.

Some women are just vile.

Imdunfer: I’m not calling women victims; I’m stating facts about how women’s behaviour is perceived and influenced by societal norms and expectations.

It’s really interesting that so many people on this thread keep repeating that women can be nasty and violent and that means misogyny doesn’t exist. Women are human. They are subject to the same flaws men are. Feminism has been pointing this out for a terribly long time.

Obviously-sometimes people are mean to a woman (whether that person is a woman or not) for many of th reasons you list, and more, We tend to point to "isms" these days, which isn't to say it is impossible for internalised misogyny to be real.
Sometimes we don't know our own motivations.

I haven't seen anyone say misogyny doesn't exist.

I have seen and agree with the many people who say that it does not go anywhere near explaining how nasty women can be to other women and to men.

I think anyone thinking that misogyny has a part in all nasty behaviour by women is casting themself as a victim without agency in their own lives.

That's a bit of a straw man, isn't it - or straw woman in this case! No-one's said misogyny has a part in all nasty behaviour by women. Many have gone out of their way to stress that it doesn't.

The issue imo with the Katie Price/Kanye comparison is that Katie Price hasn't really achieved anything notable creatively.

A better comparison would be if a woman who had done very questionable things but also achieved creatively would still receive creative (but not moral) kudos.

I think she might. Take Amy Winehouse : she admitted herself to being violent towards her boyfriend when drunk. She's still revered as a jazz vocalist. Or Courtney Love : she gets a lot of criticism (some deserved) for her personal life but is still acknowledged as talented musically.

Otoh neither of these are like Kanye. Would a woman who achieved significantly but had Kanye's level of extremity still get praise? I'm not so sure.

I've read posts that certainly read that way.

Tangential case: The woman next door to me is my age (old) and seems perfectly pleasant. I can't say any more than that, as she's never exchanged more than two sentences with me or any of the other female neighbours. She chats for hours with the men. Hours and hours.

I bet she hasn't even noticed that she does this! If asked, she might say she just finds men easier to talk to - the truth is, she gives nothing back when talking with women. Many of us will have known a few women with the same quirk. I have to say it must be internalised misogyny, for what else could it be?

Exactly. I feel similarly when Mumsnet posters blame a man for female crimes. Male abuse may drive a woman down but I've seen posts that try to absolve female criminals entirely as coerced by men and having no choice in cases where this doesn't seem to have been the truth.

I take your point. People of either sex can be awful for a number of reasons: they might be in pain, be going through a hideous event, have a personality disorder, a mental illness, a fixed antisocial outlook.

Then again, there's always this:
https://prisonreformtrust.org.uk/majority-of-women-in-prison-have-been-victims-of-domestic-abuse/

Re football, the pick me issue, such as it is, is probably women who pretend to like it to get male attention and denigrate women who don't. How common is this though? But that's I assume what people who think of it as an example of pick-mes are referring to. A bit like the famous cool girl monologue in Gone Girl where she criticises women who pretend to like a lot of things they have no interest in (nor necessarily male-coded things either) purely to appear as a man's dream woman.

I doubt women like this would actually play football, since a lot of men unfortunately might still view this as a less 'feminine' sport. And I've seen plenty of support on FWR for women's football and the Lionesses.

Yes, I was reading Vicky Pryce's book on prisons recently, (written in 2013 after she spent time in prison herself) and it was very depressing to read the amount of women who had committed crime at the behest of a partner, been in a DV relationship etc. At least there is now increasing momentum to keep women out of prison where possible.
Otoh if a woman has committed a crime like fraud, theft etc then DV can't erase responsibility wholly. Non violent crimes can still cause a lot of harm. And many male criminals (whether violent or non violent) may have had abusive parents/friends etc in their past, that can't erase responsibility either.

when a woman boasts about preferring male company, male-coded pursuits, and finding women bitchy or shallow, etc
I think there are degrees here. If a woman simply doesn't have any women she gets on well with in her orbit, it's reasonable enough to say she prefers male company at least for the moment. If a woman has a more male-typical communication style and interests, she be more like to find more in common with the men she meets. Having more male-coded interests isn't sexist by itself.

Otoh if they're making generalised negative statements about all women being shallow etc, that's a different matter.

Why must it be internalised misogyny? People are allowed to enjoy the company of the opposite sex more. If she just doesn't enjoy talking to women much that's fine. No one claims a woman who just doesn't want to talk to men a misandrist here, they actually go on about how women don't owe men anything! She doesn't owe her female neighbours a conversation, and assuming she does just because she enjoys talking to her male neighbours so you expect the same for the female neighbours is entitled behaviour.

It’s a bit mental to just write off half the human race as conversational partners.

Idk how I feel about the second point. I’ve seen a lot of victims of dv. Living under that constant fear changes your brain.
not all the time - you get women criminals as well as men - but I do think men have got a lot to answer for

If it's OK, can I ask if you were called a pick me for liking football, pubs and casual sex on FWR? Because I've only ever seen posts supportive of those things there (well apart from casual sex where some posters are against but a large number do support)

Because other boards like Relationships and AIBU can be noticeably less feminist imo. Either way, it's obviously a ridiculous and ironically sexist accusation.

Every time iv been bullied as an adult it's been by another woman. Even if it was internalized misogyny, they still chose to act on it. Nobody took away their free will