To not understand what this parent was thinking?

[Frequency]

While out with my rottweiler x this afternoon, I noticed he was panting more than I was comfortable with, so I abandoned our walk and took a detour to the nearest shop to buy him a bottle of water.

I crouched down at the edge of a very wide path to give him a drink. I wasn't paying attention to what was around me because I was watching the dog, and no one had any reason to be near us anyway. The pavement is about 8 feet wide on that street, if not wider. We were right at the edge, by the shop window.

The second I stood up, there was a toddler, eye-to-eye with my dog. He must have run up behind me while I was kneeling. He was literally nose to nose with the dog, reaching his hands out to grab/stroke the dog's face.

My dog is friendly but a little wary of small children, so I tend to keep him away from them.

Luckily, DD was with me and had spotted the kid and managed to hold his hands before he grabbed the dog's face and loudly told him, "Sorry, he's scared of kids, and he's just trying to have a drink, can you leave him alone, please?" She had to say it loudly because his mum and her friend had continued walking and were now a good 10 feet away from us. At this point, the mother then shouted at her other small child (around 7 or 8) to "get the baby," so the dog now had 2 kids to contend with while the mother kept walking away, ranting about how the young girl was supposed to be "watching the baby."

DD has anxiety and was really shaken by it, and can't stop thinking about how much worse it could have been if our dog were not friendly, or if the kid had managed to grab the dog's face and spooked/hurt him.

I still just cannot fathom what the mother was thinking, allowing her toddler to run up to a strange dog who was obviously eating/drinking, get nose to nose with him to try to grab him, and then send a second child over after she's made aware he is not a friendly dog?

Surely it is common sense to know that nose-to-nose with a strange, large breed dog, who is eating/drinking, is not a safe place to be, no matter how friendly the dog is?

I am not going to muzzle my non-aggressive, generally confident dog on the off chance that something has happened once in the 6 years I have owned him, that did not cause him to snap or give any indication he was close to snapping, happens again.

I cannot understand why you think a muzzle would be an appropriate reaction to the above circumstances. He is not aggressive. He has never given any indication that he would act aggressively. He does not need a muzzle unless he is going off-leash or on a long line in an area where he is likely to encounter dead animals. I will not be putting one on him and impeding his ability to do other things he enjoys on his walks, like carrying sticks or licking grass, because some randomer on MN who has clearly shown they don't understand dogs thinks I should.

My thread was not about my dog's behaviour or my ability to manage him. It was about the other mother's ability to parent and my disbelief at her utter lack of concern for both of her children.

If I ever have any concerns about my dog's behaviour that I don't feel I could easily resolve myself, MN is the very last place I would come to for advice. I would instead contact former colleagues who are more up to date with the latest behavioural studies and training techniques than I am.

This isn't about your dog's behaviour or training, only your responsibilities. Those are factual, even though you don't want to face it.

Your vigilance and judgement was off, otherwise you wouldn't have found yourself in this situation - you don't want to face that either.

My thread was not about my dog's behaviour or my ability to manage him. It was about the other mother's ability to parent and my disbelief at her utter lack of concern for both of her children.

I've addressed this, I wonder if you read that bit? It's very clear you want a smug criticism-fest of the mother, no one misunderstands that bit. Sadly, that attention has turned to you somewhat and you've found yourself, and your ability to properly manage your dog, in the cross hairs. That's unfortunate but when you put these things on the internet and there are glaring holes in your conduct, that tends to happen.

If I ever have any concerns about my dog's behaviour that I don't feel I could easily resolve myself, MN is the very last place I would come to for advice.

Neither should you. Again, this isn't about your dog's behaviour or training, only your responsibility.

I would instead contact former colleagues who are more up to date with the latest behavioural studies and training techniques than I am.

Shall I say it again? This isn't about your dog's behaviour or training, only your responsibility.

Is this in sarcasm? Clearly a dog that can’t be trusted not to bite someone randomly entering its personal space when it’s on a walk should be muzzled. There’s not a single argument why it shouldn’t. I thought this was standard practice?

If you only want pps to agree with you, whats the point of posting on mumsnet. There is a real lack of self accountability.

At what point did I ask for advice on managing my perfectly under control, well-balanced dog?

I was asking for opinions on the parenting of the young boy who approached us.

I was not watching my environment, but another responsible adult was, who noticed the child before I did and took action. She didn't act as quickly as would have been ideal because it wasn't immediately clear he was running towards the dog; he side-stepped into our path as I stood up. DD didn't feel the need to take preventative action until it became clear what the child was doing because our dog is not aggressive.

DD took action and stopped him from grabbing the dog. My dog reacted as I would predict under the circumstances and leaned into me for reassurance, which he got when DD removed the child and I moved further down the road.

The parent of the child responded by sending a second child to rectify the situation while she continued walking and chatting to her mates.

At no point was my dog out of control or at risk of becoming out of control. Other posters have made that up, and for reasons known only to themselves, are running with it no matter how many times I explain that my dog is not a risk to children any more than any other well-balanced dog is.

I know this because I am a degree-educated, formerly APDT-registered behaviourist who has previously worked with dogs professionally. I didn't mention this in my OP because the thread was not about my happy, well-controlled, well-behaved dog.

I know my dog is safe and under control. I know he is no more a risk to a child than any other dog. The mother who allowed her unsupervised child to rush at him does not know this. She is lucky he chose my dog to rush at, and not the 40 mph traffic a few feet to the right of him.

I know this because I am a degree-educated, formerly APDT-registered behaviourist who has previously worked with dogs professionally.

Yet you don't take water out for him on a walk?

I don't believe your dog should be muzzled, but for a professional you put your dog in an extremely vulnerable position and you handled the interaction terribly, letting your anxious daughter intervene and lay hands on a child, instead of instinctively removing your dog.

I've always had dogs, sometimes situations creep up on us, which can be people, bicycles, children approaching, it is up to you to be aware and intervene in those situations, if your dog did react negatively to those situations and something happened that would be your fault for not being on the ball, it doesn't matter what the catalyst is.. the problem would then be your dog, and by association you, as the owner responsible for their behaviour.

The parent is clearly shit.. she wasn't paying attention and didn't seem to care about either child.. you don't need to start a thread to ask that. But you weren't paying attention either.

That is complete nonsense. Its not even as the book suggests, which is likely nonsense in its origin ideas but specifically calls out their broken traits and that you can't predict anymore.

Dogs have attacked out of nowhere with no previous signs or behaviour, and they have killed front the same position. That is just a fact.

Congratulations on the most batshit crazy, ridiculous post on here.

It’s the parents fault for not watching their child and allowing it to approach a stranger’s dog. What good parent allows this to happen?!? But of course the little darlings are allowed to do whatever they want and nothing is ever the parent’s fault.

@Frequency unfortunately I experience stupid parents like these too. I think all dog owners do. You’re not alone.

I was asking for opinions on the parenting of the young boy who approached us.

We know. You very badly want to get opinions on this. We can hear your strangled cries of 'why aren't people hating more on the moootthhhherr!!!!'

But it's taken a different route, based on your behaviour and lack of accountability.

Take this scenario to any legal authority and ask them for their opinions on her conduct, and yours. Tell them exactly what you've said here - how well educated you are, how angelic your dog, how monstrous the mother. Even show them pictures if you like. I promise you they will tell you that despite all your 'degree' knowledge and fancy letters, you are still in the wrong.

So that's probably why people aren't solely focussed on only the select parts of this story you want them to be.

Sounds like she knows nothing about dogs and also nothing about how to look after children.

My non-rescue, owned since a puppy dog is scared of small children. We don't know any children so she's never really been socialised with them (and it's frowned upon to ask small children you don't know if they want to come and play with your puppy).

They're loud, unpredictable and often not respectful of personal space. All scary to my dog who's smaller than any child she's ever met.

Most dogs are less confident around children than they are around adults. It is one of the most common issues trainers are asked about, that and resource guarding.

As my ex-colleague used to say to clients, you've brought this thing into your dog's environment that smells human, but it doesn't look like a human, move like a human, or sound like a human. It's loud, it's screechy, it's flappy, and it's unpredictable.

Most dogs, like mine, will simply be a bit uneasy around them, but on rare occasions, this can turn into fear aggression (usually when the dogs have been forced to interact with children over long periods of time).

Screensaver training is useful when you don't have access to children in your home life. Find a park or place heavily populated by children that you can see from a distance, sit or stand a safe distance away, and reward your dog every time they display calm behaviour. Slowly move closer (over days/weeks, not a couple of minutes). Obviously, if you think your dog might snap if a child ran over, this is one of the times you would use a muzzle.

This is what we did with DD's Chi puppy, and she's fine with kids. She doesn't like them because they sometimes try to pick her up without asking , but she doesn't display any fearful or avoidant behavior around them; she just pretends she doesn't know her name when they call her.

My method of not letting kids pet them but getting them to offer a treat instead also works if your dog is only mildly concerned about kids and is the type of breed kids regularly approach.

I agree with other posters in that it does sound like you might benefit from gaining some more info on how to protect your dog and others around you. Muzzling doesn’t sound a bad suggestion.

No-one is suggesting the child should have done what it did, but also, your Rottweiler x that people cross the road to avoid, shouldn’t ever be able to be in a position where it could kill a child that spooked it. Another dog death today. That’s two in two days. Dogs can and do kill.

Also, maybe ask your delete your photo as you’re identifiable and someone may report you

Report me for what?

You do know what the legal definition for a dangerously out of control dog it right?

It is, word for word from the legislation; "a dog shall be regarded as dangerously out of control on any occasion on which there are grounds for reasonable apprehension that it will injure any person [F2or assistance dog], whether or not it actually does so".

You made it clear you had a reasonable apprehension it could, for whatever reason which is irrelevant, potentially hurt the child doing normal child things out of "fear". A muzzle would remove this reasonable apprehension.

Another young lady just 19 years old was killed last night by the family lurcher pet. The grandmother commented on the news posts saying the dog used to sleep in bed with the young girl and had never been aggressive before. Completely unprovoked and out of nowhere. How horrific. When will people wake up to that it’s not only dogs who have been abused or antagonised that react and snap. My sister also owned 2 boxer dogs whom she had from puppies, never been abused or mistreated in the slightest, used to run free round the farm at the horse stables every day so had regular exercise and weren’t cooped up all day. One day again out of nowhere one of them bit my niece in the face tearing her lip apart, she was just 18 months old. My sister was right there when it happened, the dog hadn’t been left alone with my niece either. The dogs had never been aggressive. There’s not always a “reason” dogs attack, reason being negative experiences or mistreatment.

For being a responsible and sensible dog owner, presumably :-)

Oh he's beautiful !

Why is it OP's responsibility to ensure a useless parent needs to actually parent their child ? Her dog is her responsibility, not other peoples children.

The OP has been clear along that her point was the child was lucky it was her under control dog they approached, not a less well trained one.

And a muzzle wouldn’t remove the apprehension, as if a toddler sticks its fingers into the muzzle, the dog can still bite so OP would be still have been apprehensive.

Horrible people!

OP, I commend your patience in explaining things ad infinitum to posters who seem intent on blaming you for somebody’s inability to parent. The reason, as far as I can gather, that you don’t 100% trust your dog if a toddler came up and poked him in the face is that he is a dog, and no dog on earth can be trusted 100%. If somebody poked me in the face, I’d probably bite them… And no, dogs don’t bite out of nowhere - as you say, there’ll have been warning signs that most people don’t notice or ignore (‘Aw look, he’s wagging his tail so he must be happy’ / ‘he’s yawning so he must be tired’ etc)

In summary: yes, that was completely unreasonable behaviour from the mother, who should have been watching her child.

Why is the dog getting any blame at all for this incident? It often amazes me how stupid parents can be. Children should be kept away from dogs unless it is clear that they will welcome attention.

Where has she ignored her responsibilities!?! OP has taken very sensible precautions. There were two people on the walk. They were right there with him. She seems very knowledgeable about her dogs behaviour and body language and she and her daughter handled the situation in a way that didn't escalate anything. They were doing everything you said they should except muzzling.

And if, as you pointed out, "any" dog can attack (and I do agree with you) then by your logic, all dogs should be muzzled in public, shouldn't they? People see a big dog and they cross the road. That's not OP's problem or responsibility. It's not indicative if his behaviour. Where have you got the idea that he's dangerous and/or that OP is not capable of managing him?

Where has she ignored her responsibilities!?!

She wasn't paying attention and allowed an unsupervised child to get close enough to be nose to nose with her wary dog.

This has been answered many times by many posters.