To not understand what this parent was thinking?

[Frequency]

While out with my rottweiler x this afternoon, I noticed he was panting more than I was comfortable with, so I abandoned our walk and took a detour to the nearest shop to buy him a bottle of water.

I crouched down at the edge of a very wide path to give him a drink. I wasn't paying attention to what was around me because I was watching the dog, and no one had any reason to be near us anyway. The pavement is about 8 feet wide on that street, if not wider. We were right at the edge, by the shop window.

The second I stood up, there was a toddler, eye-to-eye with my dog. He must have run up behind me while I was kneeling. He was literally nose to nose with the dog, reaching his hands out to grab/stroke the dog's face.

My dog is friendly but a little wary of small children, so I tend to keep him away from them.

Luckily, DD was with me and had spotted the kid and managed to hold his hands before he grabbed the dog's face and loudly told him, "Sorry, he's scared of kids, and he's just trying to have a drink, can you leave him alone, please?" She had to say it loudly because his mum and her friend had continued walking and were now a good 10 feet away from us. At this point, the mother then shouted at her other small child (around 7 or 8) to "get the baby," so the dog now had 2 kids to contend with while the mother kept walking away, ranting about how the young girl was supposed to be "watching the baby."

DD has anxiety and was really shaken by it, and can't stop thinking about how much worse it could have been if our dog were not friendly, or if the kid had managed to grab the dog's face and spooked/hurt him.

I still just cannot fathom what the mother was thinking, allowing her toddler to run up to a strange dog who was obviously eating/drinking, get nose to nose with him to try to grab him, and then send a second child over after she's made aware he is not a friendly dog?

Surely it is common sense to know that nose-to-nose with a strange, large breed dog, who is eating/drinking, is not a safe place to be, no matter how friendly the dog is?

He’s a dog. If he can’t be trusted around people, including children, he should be muzzled. End of

The mother didnt think anything.

@Keepingthingsinteresting It’s not about holding shit parents accountable because anyone with common sense would say they need to be held accountable if something were to off happened and even from the point of allowing their kid to approach the dog in the first place they should be made to feel a certain way but equally someone shouldn’t be taking their dog out in public without a muzzle when they knowingly have a feeling about the dog near small children. Both are responsible. Why should the dog have to suffer and be muzzled because of irresponsible parents… because this dog in particular has given its owner a feeling that it’s uneasy around young kids and isn’t certain it wouldn’t grab hold off a toddler by its face. If you get that feeling about your dog then just muzzle it ffs. Why do people blame dogs, it’s never the dog, it’s always the owner and the way it’s been raised, it must have been abused to just switch and attack someone…completely stupid and anyone who thinks this way is a danger to themselves, their own kids and everyone else around them and should never own a dog. They are animals not robots, they can be harmless and soppy for 5 years straight until they have a bad day or aren’t feeling well or have something else going on with them just the same as people. People can and do just switch in life for all manner of reasons. Just the same with dogs so let’s get back to treating them like dogs as they are instead of babies.

Where have I said I am unsure my dog would grab a toddler's face???

Out of interest, what is the average reading age in the UK? Does anyone know?

Also, the rott x is not my baby; he is my big, strong boy. This is my baby.

Not the cat. The cat is feral.

@Frequency You said the toddler was nose to nose with your dog so where exactly do you think it would grab the child? Crack on with your sarcasm, I’m not the one who’s walking the streets with a dog that I feel isn’t safe near babies and is too shot away to do anything about it

Where did I say I thought he would grab the child anywhere?

Why should you muzzle your dog in case some random child / person chooses to come uninvited over and touch it ( when your dog is already on the lead )
how about control your kids , keep away from someone’s already controlled and on its lead dog

just as a person wouldn’t want a stranger coming into their personal space and touching them
but no if a dog doesn’t like it they’re automatically vicious and must be muzzled !
it isn’t hard

@Frequency Right so basically your dog isn’t friendly yet you’re not concerned it would grab the toddler despite you being concerned they were nose to nose. You also tend to keep the dog away from small children yet you have no concerns about the dogs potential actions. Bit conflicting isn’t it. Ok. What do you expect the dog to do considering you’re concerned about its reactions near small children? Are you worried it will lick the child’s face? What exactly would the dog do if not for grab hold of the child? And presumably by the child’s face considering they were nose to nose as you stated.

@Frequency your dogs ears are sooo cute

@bornwithhorns You’re unbelievable. You’d happily walk round with a dog that you believe would react and bite a small child or toddler yet you still don’t think it’s appropriate to muzzle the dog knowing this. Let’s hope there isn’t some fool like yourself out and about with a dog that the owner is uncertain about and then it lunges at your kid because in that particular split second your child who always obeys you and has common sense, chooses to act like a kid and in a moment of weakness decides to approach that cute old dog and try stoke it. Them bam your child has its lip torn from its face but never mind it was your fault despite the owner parading round with a dog they knew would end up doing it. The point is kids act like kids now and again even the best behaved and most sensible ones and a child shouldn’t be subjected to that just because an adult feels entitled about their dog and believes it has rights to walk freely unmuzzled without its rights being infringed upon.

For the record I wouldn’t let my children go near anyone’s dog regardless if they’ve said it’s friendly or not so no I am not one of those parents. I’m just not stupid

@TryingToFigureLifeOutcall me a fool all you want but my kids were raised to never go up to a on lead strange dog
like I said it’s not hard is it

@bornwithhorns No it’s not hard to keep hold of your child when out and about nor is it hard to teach your kids to not approach dogs but as witnessed by the poster some parents just don’t care and toddlers and small children who don’t know any better shouldn’t suffer the negligence of that. If you don’t think that a dog should be muzzled whose owner is apprehensive it will go for a little child then let’s just not muzzle any dog at all regardless because it’s everyone else’s responsibility. Let unhinged and aggressive dogs be out in public unmuzzled because it’s down to the parent to keep their child away, when we know there are parents out there who are just as naive and wreckless as the people who have the mindset that these unpredictable dogs shouldn’t be muzzled. What if it were a disabled adult who had severe mental impairment and they approached one of these dogs? Should they know any better than a toddler too? Should we blame the disabled adults carer? These are babies you’re disregarding over a dog. Babies who don’t always have good, responsible and caring parents to keep them out of harms way.

Because the child has zero chance of killing the dog, and near zero of trying. The dog has a near certain chance of killing the child when it snaps, and as evidenced by the unease of the OP a high chance of snapping when a curious child accidentally ends up near.

Would you approach a person and grab its face while eating? No, so it's not that difficult to give other species the same space

Well, no. I don't think anyone's defended the mother. But they have ignored the point of the thread and discussed their opinions on the safety of OP's dog with certain people repeatedly claiming he needs a muzzle when it's not been suggested at any point that he posed any kind of threat.

The thread wasn't "AIBU to have my anxious, bitey dog unmuzzled in a playground" - which would justify these comments - but rather it was a thread asking about the astonishment that any parent could leave their young child in charge of their younger child despite knowing there was a danger present (albeit in this case an exaggerated one). Yet few have mentioned that at all.

My dad has a Great Dane and it always amazes me how fearless kids are around him. He’s bigger than a lot of toddlers and so many of them just toddle right up to him. He’s a friendly dog, but because he’s huge he can be clumsy. We are always having to bat other people’s kids away! Adults on the other hand are often afraid of him.

OP was absolutely right that the mother was negligent.

OP also seemed to be unaware of her own responsibilities in the situation though, which was concerning, and that’s why people spoke up.

Any startled dog can pose a threat to the general public. In this case the dog is large, a breed that is illegal to walk unmuzzled in other countries, and, though he looks lovable in the pictures OP shared, in real life he’s clearly formidable. OP said that people usually cross the road to avoid passing him. He’s of a size that could do serious damage if he’s started or frightened, most especially to a small child standing next to his face. He’s wary of and uncomfortable around children.

The child shouldn’t have been standing next to his face. The mother, of course, should not have allowed that to happen. It was dangerous for both child and animal.
OP shouldn’t have let it happen either. She doesn’t accept that.

We all know how easy it is to get distracted or busy with something else. We have no power over other people or how well they parent their children. So, if you’re walking a large, powerful dog in a built-up area with members of the general public including children about, I do think it’s a good idea, firstly, to determine to keep a very close eye on what’s happening around you, and secondly, to keep your dog muzzled. These two actions would help protect the public and your dog too.

So, here's the thing: you don't need to have very carefully avoided saying you don't think your dog would be aggressive or 'grab his face' - I'm sure most dog owners would say the same and in fact there is no defence in law for an owner to claim they had no reason to believe their dog would behave that way.

You have stated, several times, that your dog is 'wary' around children and is not well socialised with them. That is admission enough that you are aware of a specific temperament issue, even if only at particular times or in particular circumstances, making you culpable for any reaction. You also were not paying enough attention to your surroundings to recognise an unsupervised child was approaching your dog. That puts you squarely on the hook for any outcome - be that an attack, or simply your dog being traumatised (as you said).

Your bleeding-heart concerns for the child being scared by 'another, less friendly' dog or running into traffic etc are irrelevant and, imo, a thinly-veiled attempt to have a sanctimonious pile-on about how silly people are around dogs, unlike yourself, a super-duper dog owner, who knows all about it. "Oh, I just can't believe other people don't behave the way I behave, aren't they all just so (to use your word) dim!!??. Let's discuss".

However, this thread didn't quite go the way you expected, with several people rightly pointing out that whether you were talking about a hypothetical or not, you are in the wrong in this situation - both practically and in the eyes of the law. You were aware your dog is wary, you were not vigilant in your surroundings, and you have created this problem yourself, wholly unrelated to the mother's actions.

My reading comprehension is just fine: you wanted this to be about other people's failures. But a central theme has emerged and this is now an interesting conversation about responsible dog ownership, regardless of others. In this situation you have fallen short. While it is clear that you did take some good-faith precautions, these are not adequate given what you now know about the law, your responsibilities, and other people's behaviour. Perhaps you should reflect on that going forward and consider how you can act in the future to keep your dog safe, if no one else. You would be a fool not to.

If you want to make any comeback, you might want to consult a lawyer who can further make you aware of your responsibilities. It will harder to dismiss them as 'dog-hating frothers' on the internet, or belittle their IQ when you don't like what you're hearing.

Parents who allow their toddlers to run up to dogs and grab them are stupid.

There are other factors and responsibilities that are also relevant but there is no getting away from the fact that toddlers should be protected by their parents from getting into situations like this and all children should be educated not to touch a dog without prior permission from the handler.

There are other factors and responsibilities that are also relevant but there is no getting away from the fact that toddlers should be protected by their parents from getting into situations like this and all children should be educated not to touch a dog without prior permission from the handler.

Yes, I don’t think anyone is in disagreement about that.

I haven't very carefully avoided saying I don't think my dog is aggressive. I have outright said he is not aggressive and never given me any reason to believe he would be aggressive.

When he sees children, he leans into me and angles himself away from them. He doesn't growl, he doesn't stiffen up, his tail position doesn't change, his hackles don't raise, he doesn't bare his teeth, he doesn't give any indication that he could be aggressive, he just leans his weight against me and turns his head towards me, indicating he is unsure about something and looking to me for reassurance. He does the same when off-leash dogs approach him, even though he loves other dogs when he is off lead, or when they're also on lead.

When he sees something he is actually afraid of, like crows, he tries to bolt. He still hasn't given any indication that he would be aggressive with a crow, just that he wants to get the fuck away and he wants to get the fuck away now.

I don't keep him away from children because I am worried about aggression; I keep them away because he is unsure of them, and he looks to me to keep him safe and happy. Forcing interactions with something he is unsure about without controlling them and keeping them calm and positive could cause him to become fear-aggressive, so I don't do it.

None. Of. This. Matters. I hope you can hear that.

This is a rehash of the things you've said before - and so many people have told you it has NO relevance to the fact that YOU are criminally responsible for our dog. Saying your dog is not aggressive is completely irrelevant, even if you put it in bold.

Take the advice and facts you've been given and change your behaviour going forward. If you love your dog, why on earth wouldn't you? Stubbornly refusing to acknowledge the reality of the situation because you're hanging on to factually inconsequential beliefs is not acting in their best interests.

I don't keep him away from children because I am worried about aggression; I keep them away because he is unsure of them, and he looks to me to keep him safe and happy. Forcing interactions with something he is unsure about without controlling them and keeping them calm and positive could cause him to become fear-aggressive, so I don't do it.

This paragraph alone is astonishing, and shows that you haven't grasped the situation. You clearly feel it will absolve you but it actually does the exact opposite. You have admitted he is unsure (ie a known temperament), you have said an unfortunate interaction where you can't control the circumstances could cause him to become fear-aggressive - and yet here you are in one. You may not have forced him into it but it happened on your watch anyway, as will always be the case when living in the real world. So your admission that you knew it was a possibility and you were not vigilant to stop it is damning.

If you are ever involved in any situation with your dog - do not say a word to anyone until you have legal representation, you will talk yourself further into a hole.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Dogs-Understanding-Canine-Behavior-Evolution/dp/0226115631/ref=pd_lpo_d_sccl_1/261-5164909-9505735?pd_rd_w=naiPI&content-id=amzn1.sym.bb13d3fc-af40-4fff-a822-e0e4c415da96&pf_rd_p=bb13d3fc-af40-4fff-a822-e0e4c415da96&pf_rd_r=2KDX6WDWGHDD840ADJ55&pd_rd_wg=1bJH8&pd_rd_r=1771e64b-0ed7-4265-ac03-0288dcd3d27f&pd_rd_i=0226115631&psc=1

This a good read, I suggest you get a copy before you comment again on canine behaviour. I read it when I was doing my degree.

One negative interaction is not going to suddenly cause him to snap, given that he has shown no prior signs of aggression in any area of his life. Dogs simply do not work that way. Biting or snapping is a last resort and occurs only after multiple warnings and escalations. Anyone who says their dog snapped out of the blue has missed or ignored the prior warnings.

Repeated negative interactions, over time, could cause his behaviour to escalate slowly. Therefore, I try to keep him away from children, unless I can control the interaction, to prevent this from happening.

Oh good grief. This doesn't matter either, not one bit. You talk about other people's reading comprehension but you keep going over the same irrelevancies.

Nobody cares what book you've read - I don't, the public at large don't, the law doesn't. You can know the most about dog behaviour in all the world but you STILL were clearly in the wrong here and you need to face that, refusing to do so only puts your dog at risk. That's not my opinion, it's fact. Protect your dog!