School as child care

[Differentforgirls]

From another thread.

A poster said that state schools are there for helping parents to work. Therefore teachers are childminders. Teachers!

I think schools are there to educate our children and, though the staff go above and beyond these days, that is their primary function.

AIBU?

When kids are at school, is there a responsible adult who ensures they don't hurt themselves, get fed etc?

Yes? Then that is the school providing childcare. It's not the same care as you would expect from a nursery but it's still ensuring that the children are safe and fed.

That I would argue is a more important duty than teaching times tables - first and foremost I expect my kids to be safe at school, followed by being taught something, and the trust that requires is huge. On the first day of school I had never met the teacher I was trusting my 4 year old to, and yet I was happy for him to go. There are few complete strangers I would do that with.

And yet somehow teachers think the mere suggestion that they are keeping children safe is an insult. Absolute fucking batshit.

So do parents take it in turns to go in at playtime and ensure the safety of children? Who ensures safety in the classroom?

So if school was closed you'd just leave a 5 year old at home whilst you go to work? They'd be okay because they don't need childcare for those 6 hours they're at school?

The whole point us that they go to school to learn. Schools are for the benefit of the children, not the parents.

Could you care for 30 children?

Agree with all of this.

Of course teachers are there to educate. I genuinely don’t think anyone has says anything different.
What people are saying is that part of the role of a teacher/school is to care for the children as their parents aren’t physically present.
The fact that children are in school means that many parents can use this time to work. Nobody is saying that a school’s primary purpose is childcare just that it’s a by product of the situation.
That doesn’t devalue the role of a teacher or mean that parents don’t value education.

Who is responsible for the children while they are on the school premises?

Parents are still parents and being cared for by someone else doesn’t change that. Nobody is saying that teachers need to be parents to all the children in their class.

As a teacher in a classroom ?Yes. That’s the job. There will often be a TA present too (more than one sometimes if there are complex or additional needs).

On a school trip there will be more adults per children and this will be risk assessed. This is because teachers and school staff are responsible for the children because parents aren’t present.

Oh no schools were definitely a capitalist invention (or at least nudged further along by capitalism).

schools allow us to create consistency in our children (aka indoctrinate) and allow there still to be a fully functioning workforce. It’s why homemakers have phased away. There’s no need to stay at home look after the kids, educate at home (as was done only a couple of centuries ago), when children are rounded up and taken off your hands for 6.5 hours a day. It’s a 241 on the workforce.

Schools are primarily there as a childminder, but also as machine to feed future workforces, all taught generally the same knowledge and skills to make them easy to control.

My kids left school some time ago. We were lucky that they had brilliant teachers and a great education. I had an excellent relationship with the staff and a couple of teachers have become my good friends. I supported the teachers and the head sometimes asked me professional advice because of my career. It was a mutual respectful parent-school relationship.

Nobody here has said that said that is primarily childcare. Nobody. People aren’t stupid. They know that schools are there to educate. Looking back, my kids had a great education and are now doing very well. However, childcare was a ‘side effect’ of this education as they were literally being looked after at school whilst I was at work! That’s hardly offensive unless you want it to be so, surely?

This is such a bizarre comment (as is this thread). The vast majority of parents send their kids to school for this very reason and whether you like it or not, it gives parents 6 hours a day where they aren't with their kids. Do teachers now think they can dictate to parents how they use this time? Are parents now expected to accompany their children to school if school doesn't give them free time?

And as for whole "other people raising your children" nonsense, is it only parents who stay at home while their children are at school who are raising them? Are parents who work while their kids are at school not raising them?

I'm confused by this whole thread. Yes school isn't a childminder or teacher but it is a TYPE of childcare. It is a place where children go for a set amount of hours each day without their parents and what parents use this time for is entirely at their own discretion.

Parents send their kids to school, to learn and have an education and to learn vital skills for life. And last time I checked teachers played their part in this, in helping to shape a child. And also last time I checked, teachers and wider school staff had a legal and moral obligation to keep children safe and looked after on their premises.

When I talk about parenting children , I mean being asked /expected to , to do things that are literally in the remit of the parents.

Throughout the years we’ve had parents asking us to come and bring their child to school , talk about and explain periods to girls because the parents wouldn’t do it(not as part of PHSE ), cut their kids’ nails , talk to their kids about seeing the doctor/dentist/ophthalmologist, convince their kids to brush their teeth, a parent asked if Miss X could actually go with her and her kid to the ophthalmologist, impose rules and boundaries AT HOME (like confiscating a child’s XBOX ), been used as threats (I’m telling Miss about that!), and a million other things, but these are just some concrete (and fairly low level examples) just off the top of my head.

It’s not about the fact that the kids are in the care of teachers for 6 hours a day.

The stay at home, educate at home thing was very much a middle/upper class endeavour.

And you don’t stop being a parent if someone else is caring for your children!
I hate it when people ask working parents (mothers) why they bother having children if they aren’t going to bring them up. Being a parent is so much more than being physically present all of the time. Choosing a school which is not only going to offer an excellent education but a caring environment is part of my job as a parent. I’m going to trust to the school to look after my child for hours every day so the caring element is really important!

Who's caring for my kids during the school day? Obviously it's the teachers.

But the caring part happens as a by product of the education part, which is obviously the primary purpose of schooling (although 'education' goes beyond the curriculum, and there is some crossover with social skills etc. So if a teacher was imparting the curriculum brilliantly but modelling awful behaviours that wouldn't make them a brilliant teacher, for example).

Obviously the OP is reasonable to say that parents should handover responsibility for their kids upbringing wholesale to schools. But she is BU if she thinks that you can draw a line somewhere and that 'teaching' makes it clear where that line is. There will be some things that are clearly the responsibility of parents. And some things will be a bit blurrier.

I'm finding it really hard like you, people are arguing this point.

I don't think anyone is arguing about teachers not teaching, but they also have a responsibility towards their children in their care during school hours to ensure their safety and wellbeing.

I thought this was a pretty basic function of the job. And I am not talking about all the extras such as changing nappies and brushing teeth etc but their legal obligations to ensure children are kept safe and secure on their premises.

If teachers are saying they aren't caring for children, then who is when they are at school?

I don’t think any reasonable person thinks that’s acceptable!
I work in education and I’m a governor at 2 schools - I’m very familiar with the unreasonable demands a small number of parents make of schools and teachers!

At no point have a suggested teachers should act as parents to the children in their class.

My mum was a teacher and without school (and albeit a childminder) she wouldn't have been able to work.

Is parents who are teachers using school to allow them work acceptable to the whole "school isn't childcare" brigade?

I think if the OP had tried to elaborate their point in the way you have, there might have been more common ground. I agree that people's expectations of teachers can be way off, and an abdication of responsibility.

I don't agree that being a working parent who values the fact I can work while my child is at school, or uses wrap around care, necessarily puts me in the same camp as these parents, and I do think that good schools recognise that they are in partnership with working parents and if they are considerate of what this means re notice of closures, frequency of expectations to attend in the middle of the day etc then everything runs more smoothly. Just saying "school isn't childcare" is unhelpful as it draws no nuance between any of it in a way that's really disrespectful to how so many families' lives actually work.

School isn't childcare but it acts as childcare. That's why the actual entitlement to free childcare ends at school age, but the expectations that parents work do not.

I completely agree with everything you’ve said here and think that’s why so many people have been frustrated on this thread.

Then why are the government requiring schools to provide breakfast clubs & wrap around?

Whether you like it or not, an element of the way primary education is structured is also about caring for children in large groups to free up more adults to work.

As lock down demonstrated, lots of parents found they could complete the academic work provided by school in an hour or two. An engaged parent working with a small number of children can easily cover the vast majority of the primary curriculum at home, often in less time, but its economically inefficient to do that and does not provide the social benefits school provides.

Teachers do a huge amount beyond academic teaching - at my daughter's last parents evening a chunk of the time was spent discussing some friendship issues she has had and strategies to help her navigate these.

This does not in any way devalue teaching. To engage a teach a class of 30, with incredibly variable abilities and needs, is a phenomenal skill and requires expert pedagogical skills.

It is incredibly snobby to think that the element of childcare provided at the same time is a) lesser or b) detracts from the value of the academic teaching provided.

I’m genuinely struggling to understand the point the OP is making. Yes, the primary role of schools is to educate, but given that many people are unable to work if their children aren’t in school, they also fulfil a childcare role. You can’t separate the two out. Is the OP suggesting working mothers (and we are talking about mothers, let’s face it) give up our jobs and go on benefits, purely so we can sit by the phone in case our kids need any care that the school isn’t meant to provide? Or is she suggesting that wraparound care shouldn’t exist because schools should provide six hours of education and nothing else? I’m genuinely baffled.

Oh and i do agree some parents expect far too much of schools. Eg expecting children to be taught to tie shoelaces or use cutlery at school, expecting EYFS teachers to potty train or change nappies.

But we can't escape that when children are there for 6 hours a day, teachers/schools are going to have a huge impact on children's socialisation, and as a result we do have to expect that they will uphold behavioural standards eg requiring children to be polite & respectful, encouraging socially cohesive behaviours like turn taking/sharing/teamwork. This doesn't negate parents responsibilities to also teach their children these behaviours but school & parents need to partner on it.

Genuine question @ProudCat and @ForUmberFinch - who is providing childcare whilst the small children are at your school? It’s not the parents, because they are not with them.

Should I call the police or contact the safeguarding team about this? If I heard about 1 4yo child not having any general care for 6 hours every day, I would do that. So who is caring for the children at your schools?