AIBU to question entering my dyslexic daughter for the Kent 11+?

[Pigwig22]

My daughter is in year 4 and we are trying to decide whether to go for the Kent 11+. I don’t think we should as I’m concerned she’s unlikely to pass, my husband thinks put her in for the experience and see what happens.

She has dyslexia and I don’t feel she does that well at school, but I guess I have nothing to compare her to.

She has come on massively this year in maths, getting 90-100% in arithmetic tests but only about 50-60% in maths reasoning meaning she’s expected overall in maths. This is an improvement to previous years.

In English her compression scores are very good (80-90%), but grammar is just ok (50-60%) and spelling is where her dyslexia really shows 0-3 out of 20 is standard. She would be expected in reading and WTE in SPAG because of the spelling.

We have done some little bits of non verbal reasoning at home and this is her dyslexic super power! I’ve never really known her her one wrong and she sees it almost instantly.

Verbal reasoning is ok if she reads it and close
to full marks if I read it to her as due to the dyslexia she misreads some words. Could she have a reader for this in the 11+?

I think we’d have to work her hard to achieve a pass with the above (is it even possible with this starting point and lots of tutoring??). She already has a dyslexia tutor for the spelling so I guess we would be dropping that and focusing on the 11+ which feels counterproductive long term in what will actually benefit her.

But my biggest concern is if grammar would really be right for her anyway. She can get a bit sad about bad exam marks (ie the spelling test low scores) and they don’t even matter yet. I also feel if (and to me a big if) she scrapped in then she’d be bottom of the class and it would destroy her confidence.

But my husband says stick her in the test without tutoring and see what happens, it all builds resilience he feels.

I think it worth saying we don’t like any of the comprehensive schools near us so our alternative would be private school (I am also nervous about her passing those tests, our top choice would be Radnor Sevenoaks so I think not super selective?). Because of this my husband also argues go for it as we could save on the fees if she did get in.

So AIBU to think it’s a waste of time and potentially detrimental to put her in for it with the above considerations? Or is it all character building anyway?

You have described my daughter to a T. We have decided not to. If we heavily tutored she could get in but she's very sensitive and there's little Sen provision at the school for dyslexic kids. I feel that the struggle when she gets there (yr7-9) may well destroy her mental health (they are likely to fly 9-11). But one of the local comps is nicer- even if it doesn't have the best scores. So we are trying to move into that catchment and heavily tutor.
There's no right answer.
I would look at your child and the local schools carefully. And move if you have to.

My DD is at a Kent grammar and has dyslexia. She has 25% extra time in exams, uses a laptop and gets a 30min one to one per week with a teacher for general writing help. She cannot spell and has little regard for key Spag conventions. However still managed a 7 in English GCSE. Plenty of others at the school are dyslexic too. Now doing A levels in essay subjects. My point is dyslexia won’t stop your DD being successful if she is otherwise clever enough and in terms of that I mean in the top 20% or 30% of her class now. Dyslexia does not mean she will be at the bottom of the year group. It means you learn differently. Not that you are less intelligent. At our grammar school the students at the bottom of the year group are those who just don’t put the work in regardless of how smart they might actually be. Definitely tutor your DD. Everyone else will be tutoring whatever they may say!

My son is at a super selective grammar, he has a massive amount of work to do and there are very high expectations in terms of ability. Don't put pressure on her which she may not be able to maintain when she actually gets there.

And Kent does not have comprehensive schools - it’s either grammar or a non selective secondary school. Any school saying it has a grammar stream is just giving a label to its top set.

I think the key thing is not whether she would pass the test, it’s whether the school is right for her long term. I decided against it for my eldest on that basis. Main reasons were I wasn’t that impressed with the SENCO, he doesn’t respond to being “pushed into” things (needs to make his own mind up that he wants to be good at something), the days were super long because he’d have a longer bus journey (he wouldn’t get home until 5.30) and I just generally didn’t particularly like the ethos of our local grammar school- very much seemed like it was trying to emulate the private schools and/ or about 30 years behind the times! That said it does get excellent results and I think for the right child it would be good. My eldest is about to start his GCSEs at the local non grammar though and is predicted 7s for most things so I think it was the right those for us. He’s also doing loads of extra curriculars like music, DofE, youth club and seems relatively happy and well balanced.

Have you been to the school(s) she’d go to and spoken to the SENCO? Worked out what would be the alternative? If not I’d definitely do that.

Comprehensive schools are non-selective secondaries.

Comprehensive schools replaced grammar school systems. It means they have all abilities in. The existence of grammar schools in areas like Kent mean the other schools aren't comprehensive.

I agree with @Heronwatcher. The important thing is whether or not the school would be right.

I will say, I think what you are describing sounds like a bright child who is currently quite held back by her dyslexia, and that could go either of two ways. Without support, she might find she never learns to compensate for her dyslexia and so her very high scores in elements of English and Maths never really show up in tests. With support, she might learn to compensate. The issue is - if she does and can learn to compensate, will she then be a bit bored as a high achiever in a lower-achieving context?

I know I'm slightly asking you to have a crystal ball, and that isn't fair - but a lot of bright dyslexic children really take off once they learn good compensation strategies. I'm dyslexic; it runs in my family, and we all ended up doing much, much better later on in education than we did at primary school. I have also taught a lot of dyslexic students at a very highly-ranked university, and they had the same sorts of profiles as you're describing with your DD. It's the fact that she is excellent in some areas and struggling badly in others that jumps out to me - she's obviously got a lot of capacity there.

Absolutely do take the point that none of this is useful if you feel the grammar schools won't be able to support her properly, or if the risk of her feeling upset with herself is too great.

I am an ex literacy lead and teacher for primary age children. Do not enter her - you are setting her up to absolutely destroy her confidence and self esteem for life if you do. I have tutored children for the 11+ and I have taught Year 6 children for years -many sitting the 11* for two local grammar schools. You will not build resilience in her - you will simply make her feel very bad about herself. Even the very gifted need intensive tutoring to pass it and MOST FAIL and they are the top 10% of each class. The format of the tests need to be practiced and understood in advance to have even a slight chance of getting a good grade. My daughter is also dyslexic and in Year 4. She is bright and remains confident, because I know how to meet her learning needs. I would never put her in for the 11+ as a dyslexic child. For one, she would need assistive reading scaffolding, and extra time, and the way her brain interprets phonics would still prove way too much for her. You would be mad to consider this.

My title might be a bit misleading - I’m not really saying not to put her in because of her dyslexia but in light of where she currently is academically.

We were in similar situation. A bit extreme but we moved to a genuinely comprehensive area instead. (We were looking to move, it wasnt just for schools)

Shes now in Yr10 andflying because she git support whete she needed it but also opportunities to do the stuff she is is good at at the highest level (in her case Maths and Science).

If you have good non grammars this is fine. But unfortunately grammar schools can negitively effect the surrounding schools.

I wouldn’t put her in unless she really wants to. If she does want to, you’ll have to go hard on the tutoring. Putting her in untutored is just unkind.

Your husband doesn’t understand how resilience works- it’s not just built by all negative experiences, so let’s have lots of them and not worry, as it all builds so-called resilience. That’s a very lazy, old fashioned attitude to raising children. It can really damage self esteem.

Tbh what I’d do is not live in Kent but I’m guessing that ship has sailed.

My dd goes to a really brilliant all girls comp in South London where she’s really thrived (she chose to stay for sixth form after receiving offers from grammars in neighbouring boroughs - well she would get offers as she go 10 x 9s). Comps are not a worse option for genuinely really bright kids but it has to be actually comprehensive, not one with all the brightest kids creamed off like in Kent.

DS is dyslexic and has ADHD. Just passed SATs and that was with tutoring. Doing well in a sort of streamed mixed comprehensive secondary to the extent he’s gone up a “stream” (they’re a bit less rigid than that) in the non core subjects, at this point in yr 7. The idea of having made him sit an 11 + baffles me.

It depends on how academic she is. Dyslexia is not an indication of this. Is she a super bright dyslexic child? Or an averagely academic child who also has dyslexia?

I have a highly dyslexic DS who was so bright that he managed to mask it all the way up to about Y9 when it became clear that he was actually very dyslexic and was diagnosed. Still did well at school, with B grades in English GCSE. He went to a selective grammar school and actually I suspect he must have been very near the top in his 11+ because three other selective schools in the area wrote to offer him a place on top of the nearby one we were sending him to.

At A level he took Maths, Further Maths, Physics, Chemistry and Economics and came out with straight A grades. He now works as an aerospace engineer.

My DD is severely dyslexic. She went to a non selective school and now has two degrees. My other DC went to grammar school. One has a Master's and one doesn't have a degree, but has a high achiever's job anyway. It really doesn't matter where they go to school in Kent, grammar school or not, they will achieve to the best of their ability.

Thanks, we nearly moved last year but have ruled it out for now. Good luck with your move.

Sorry I mean non-selective rather than comp.

But re tour earlier message, it’s not just the dyslexia that’s stopping me - but I’m thinking are her currrnt abilities good enough. As you say, she should be top of her class. She tells me she is bottom. I’m not sure if that’s true or she’s just focusing on her spelling tests. I’ve put her usual scores in my original post. So with those scores, with or without dyslexia, I’m thinking it’s not good enough for grammar.

We visited several schools this year but we weren’t allowed to visit most of the grammar schools. Some of them only let you once you’ve passed the test / when you’re in y6 (maybe y5) but you have to decide whether to go for it before then so v tricky

Similar to the poster above this is also a very accurate description of my dyslexic DD in terms of attainment. She is in year 5 now and I absolutely would not consider for a second putting her forward for an 11+. DD is very emotionally intelligent, secure and has high self esteem and I don’t want to jeopardise that. I want her to attend a school that values the whole child and places equal value on what they contribute due to their attitude/behaviours as academic success.

I was highly academic at school but didn’t have the social and emotional skills DD has and I actually think she’ll be far more successful than me so I wouldn’t risk demoralising her at this stage.

Good luck! You know your child best- follow your/their instincts.

To add, yes the alternative is a private school where we've met with the SENCO and love their approach. I think my husband is just thinking no harm in a last throw of the dice before we throw oursleves in to private fees. But I guess I think there could be harm to her self esteem / happiness in working so hard for something that isn't right / she isn't going to succeed at.

Yeah, that kind of attitude especially for a child with additional needs was the sort of thing that put me off! Do they not even have open days in the autumn?

What about the school she would go to if she didn’t pass the 11+, can you go and visit that? We had a very credible non-selective option which I was totally happy with and where the vast majority of people from my son’s school went so that fed into my decision too. If the alternative had been terrible I might have considered the grammar more seriously. Or would you be thinking of private?

I do agree though, no way would I be putting a child with dyslexia through the 11+ for the experience!

I agree with OP’s DH on this. If you are laid back about the test, she will be too.
People pay £££ for assessments. You have an opportunity to compare her performance with other kids of her age.
Just don’t do any tutoring!

I agree plus if you decide to go for the 11+ she’d likely need tutoring- IMO it’s not fair to put children, especially those with dyslexia, through it without and the schools in our area are really explicit that they don’t prepare for the 11+. No doubt someone willl be on to say that their kids passed with no tutoring whatsoever but in my experience that’s vanishingly rare. So if you’re going to put her in for the exam and do it properly you’d need to commit to and pay for tutoring from now onwards.

Thanks that is an interesting perspective - she does have a typical dyslexic spikey profile! And what you're saying is probably what my husband is getting at. He thinks our daughter is like him. He is probably dyslexic but undiagnosed. He struggled at primary school but ended up with a 2.1 in Ancient History from a top 10 uni. So I guess he is saying 'don't write her off yet' (not that I am).

But I keep saying to him the difference is she is trying her best and still struggling, whereas he didn't care about school as he was obsessed with football and played 2 years above himself at primary scool, so he just focused on that which gave him his self esteem. My daughter is great at lots of extra curricular things, but I'm not sure she has found something that gives her that self esteem, yet.

We don't acutally live in Kent, we live in South East London, but one of the girl's Kent grammars comes out to us in first round offers.

And to be fair to my husband, he absolutely would move. He thinks the system here is insane. But I don't want to be too far from my dad who isn't well.

It sounds like your daughter is very smart, and you haven't mentioned dyslexia so I'm not really sure how her 10x 9s from a comp is relevant...

But basically sounds like you are agreeing with me no to grammar and to find a school that will support her, which having been round all local schools means just going for the private school option.

I think she's probably average, but I'm not sure - it's hard to know when you're never given comparisons of where others are... But I've put her scores in my original post.

She tells me she is 'bottom of the class'. She does go to a school where eveyrone is targeting 11+ and heavily tutored, but even then, other than for spelling, I am surprised if she is bottom of the class... Obviously if she is then I should close the book on 11+ now. But I find it hard to know with her scores as I have no real comparison.