It’s another ND one

[Knittingunwittingly]

I’m sure I am going to get flamed for this, but here goes…

I attend a local craft group with 8 other regulars. Seven out of 8 of them have either been diagnosed ND (mostly ADHD) themselves or some/all of their DC have, or both. I also strongly suspect that I am ND, and possible one of my DC is too.

I know I am arguing against myself here because I suspect myself of being neurodivergent, but if ND is becoming more common than NT, then surely NT is no longer NT? Or, is it that us ND birds of a feather flock together, as it were?

YABU it just so happens that you have landed amongst a ND bunch, and this is not reflective of society at large.
YANBU we are pathologising normal human experience and potentially over diagnosing neurodivergence.

that is wonderful to hear that so many children are getting the help and support they need.

No, of course there aren’t more ND people - the vast majority of people are NT. But if you’re ND yourself you’re more likely to be friends with/share interests with other ND people.

I had an ex-bf who studied Maths at Cambridge - I’d be willing to bet that everyone or nearly everyone on his course was ND (including him - at the time he had a diagnosis of dyslexia and I thought he was incredibly scatty - obvious now with hindsight he had ADHD too). But I studied History and out of the 10 in my college on my course there was only 1 person who (again with hindsight) was on the spectrum - everyone else NT.

My kids are in classes of 30 in state schools and there are 2-3 ND kids per class, which I think again reflects the general population.

Nature truly is a comfort and healer. Wishing you and every one else who is trying to overcome their struggles all the very best x

I acknowledge that I have made some
broad sweeping generalisations, which are probably unhelpful.

i have genuinely looked into ND for both myself and my DC, but have not sought diagnosis yet, and this thread is part of me processing whether I think it would be helpful for us to go down this route.

I was also just listening to a podcast where the host has been diagnosed autistic. I have listened to her podcast for quite awhile, and to me, she seems the exact opposite of autistic - so switched-on socially. But the example she was using was that parties drain her, so she doesn’t like to go (I relate), but that was why I started looking into whether the criteria for ASD seems to have expanded to include so many introverts.

I was often excluded socially as a child, but had one good friend who helped me navigate the social landscape, because I didn’t pick it up intuitively. I still struggle with social cues sometimes but I have learnt a lot over the years and masked a lot, so most people I now know probably wouldn’t realise. But it was a lot more obvious when I was a child. In my head, I still want to interrupt constantly, but restrain myself. So many other things too to do with sensory issues etc.

OP yes the diagnostic criteria has expanded- two key changes: removing subcategories such as Asperger’s, and by only two domains of the 3 now being required for diagnosis.
Additionally- elements of the criteria are somewhat subjective, such as social communication deficits, and functional limitations.
i guess ultimately would come to why you’d be seeking diagnosis whether there is something you might be hoping to gain from it, and how important that is to you.. eg understanding, access support, including through being registered disabled etc

@Knittingunwittingly I think I listen to the same podcast and was also surprised when the host dropped in about being autistic.

I’ve had some social difficulties myself (posted about the most recent one just today!) and have wondered whether I am ND. I definitely lean towards being anxious and have some autistic / ADHD & OCD traits.

But I’ve held down relationships, some friendships, good career (10+ years in current role), and day to day I’m ok. Although admittedly I’ve been fortune in some respects & built the kind of life that suits me (WFH, lots of outdoors time in nature, exercise, large quiet house, just one DC) so that massively helps me be ok.

I wonder at what point my hobbies would be deemed autistic “special interests” as opposed to just hobbies? I wonder whether the fact I don’t click with some groups means I’m autistic, or maybe they just aren’t my people? I wonder whether the fact I get burnt out by messages coming at me from Teams, email, WhatsApp is due to being ND or just that modern life is awful in that regard?

Given I’m largely ok, it doesn’t feel right to compare myself to people I know who are ND and sadly have a pretty miserable life day to day with huge struggles over pretty much everything.

Whereas my current “struggle” is feeling a bit socially rejected by the other school mums.

Birds of a feather. Even undiagnosed ND people tend to recognise something in other ND people.

And actually I am sure it wasn’t intentional but the idea of people being diagnosed because they are introverts and don’t like parties is quite offensive. Being introverted and being ND are not the same thing.

I was diagnosed with ASD at 50 and ADHD at 55. I have struggled all my life with certain environments to the point of not being able to attend things where I can’t disappear home if needed. It’s not the same as just preferring your own company.

Also women are under diagnosed because the criteria is set around how it presents in boys. So widening the criteria to include how it presents in women and girls is a good thing.

Tbh that sounds like modern life.

ASD/ADHD is not just having certain traits. It is having certain traits to the extent they are harming your life in some way.

Ah, just enjoy the group you go to. Pointless overthinking anything about it.

I'm somewhere in between. Some groups are just not representative of wider population, plus I'm slightly doubtful when people self diagnose. One of my hobby groups is similar, and I enjoy attending, enjoy the activities but ignore any ND chat that comes up now. I've ND family members and know enough about assessments.

Enjoy the hobby.

And yes, i believe ND is such a wide, poorly defined term that - together with widening autism/ADHD criteria - ND is no longer a minority.

I think you're move likely to find ND people at an organised social group. NT people are more likely to already have friends to do activities with so not need an organised social opportunity. I work with Autistic people and we often signpost them to activities like this when they are socially isolated.

I relate to so much of what you have said!!

(Is the podcast you listen to a therapy one? If so, yes it must be the same.)

What nonsense! People have been joining organised social groups since the first one was ever set up. People who are interested in the same thing join a group, it's got nothing whatsoever to do with how many friends they have, or don't have, and even people with very wide social circles join organised groups.

Well your belief is incorrect. Only 1-2% of people have autism and 3-4% have adhd. Many have both so will be the same people.

I’m not sure it matters if people say they have adhd unless they are demanding everyone around them make accommodations for them. Or are demanding medication without a proper diagnosis.
does it matter

I don’t think it’s becoming the majority at all, but self diagnosis isn’t helping as lots of people think they are because of a few traits that have been shown on social media. But not wanting to do things or not liking parties does not mean someone is autistic. There is lots of criteria to meet and you also have to have been significantly impacted in your life.

Where are these stats from please?

I’m diagnosed ASD and ADHD. For me it’s not being a bit socially awkward or being drained by teams and WhatsApp, that’s modern life and personality traits.

I’m what people would describe as ‘high functioning’ ASD and ADHD, I have a DH, DCs and a good professional job. But I’ve also been impacted my whole life, I didn’t fit in at school and therefore I was bullied throughout school, was clever but didn’t engage much with school work, ended up school refusing and self harm. I struggled with attendance at jobs until I found what fit and have worked my work life around what I can do with flexibility and work part time. I struggle with sleep, keeping the house, and simple tasks like drinking, going to the toilet and showers due to ADHD paralysis.

You mentioned hobbies, well for me the difference is enjoying a hobby and being all consumed by something or a topic. I won’t say what my social interest is but when there’s an ‘event’ I will spend my time researching and following it, staying up all night watching videos and researching and I struggle to think of anything else during these times. I’ve had to take time off work before because of it.

Well put! It wasn’t til I was 50 that I had my first diagnosis so I just thought I was useless

It has taken me until the age of 55 to find the job that works with my brain, not against it.

Assuming what (particularly late diagnosed women) go through is the same as being introverted or really liking something or not getting on at the school gate is really quite reductive and could be seen as dismissive and insulting

National Autistic Society and NHS. You’ll notice from the recent independent NHS task force investigation lead by experts in the field they highlight how under diagnosed ADHD is.

https://www.autism.org.uk/advice-and-guidance/what-is-autism#:~:text=autism%20a%20disability?-,How%20many%20autistic%20people%20are%20there?,true%20diversity%20of%20autistic%20people.

https://digital.nhs.uk/data-and-information/publications/statistical/adult-psychiatric-morbidity-survey/survey-of-mental-health-and-wellbeing-england-2023-24/autism-spectrum-disorder

www.england.nhs.uk/long-read/report-of-the-independent-adhd-taskforce-part-1/#:~:text=England%20and%20the%20rest%20of,obtain%20pharmacological%20treatment%20(9).

The numbers of ND people out of work is massive so they are more likely to need craft groups. Stands to reason when you look at what they struggle with and how any reasonable adjustments in the work place are attacked but the figures are shameful and we need to do more to help stay in the work place.

The true figure by those in the industry is deemed to be more like 10-15%... The unfortunate truth is that many people believing they are Nd are unable to get a diagnosis due to a combination of an overloaded NHS (& now overloaded private diagnosis sector, many of whom are not even taking any more applications) and a cynical and obstructive approach when diagnosis is saught.

I have personal experience of this as I myself have looked into an ADHD diagnosis via both routes over the years and have been discouraged:

I approached my doctor around 15 years ago seeking help with a history of self harm and a long term (since early teens) eating disorder, who (& this is outing to any RL friends) casually declared he believed I had ADHD and asked me if I had found any coping mechanisms that worked, to which I replied that I smoked a small amount amount of pot throughout the day which helped 🙈 and his response was "off the record, carry on"! Obviously 30s me was delighted with that...!

Second attempt at a diagnosis came when I was struggling with young children 10 years later and had had to ditch all my "coping mechanisms" - eating disorder, pot, and a job as an outdoor instructor - a different doctor took one look at me and one look at my notes and declared I'd managed to get this far just fine and sorry, but there was no budget for it in our county and dismissed me. I left, speechless, and cried in my car for 20 minutes.

6-7 years on from That shocker of an experience, spattered with occasional longing glances into the world of private diagnosis (now all mostly either with closed books or prohibitively expensive), I have pretty much just accepted my place as undiagnosed ND - along with my small group of 5/6 friends, yes also all undiagnosed ND, birds of a feather really do - but I am not going to let my children go through the same as I have so will push for a diagnosis for them so they feel they are not broken or with "faulty wiring" (how I wryly described myself all my life). My son, incidentally, has been picked up by every single teacher he's had since age 3 at nursery as being ND and is still "on the diagnosis pathway" now... He is 11.

This link is very interesting and shows the true figures are way higher than Nice optimistically state...

https://digital.nhs.uk/data-and-information/publications/statistical/adult-psychiatric-morbidity-survey/survey-of-mental-health-and-wellbeing-england-2023-24/attention-deficit-hyperactivity-disorder#key-findings

I think in 10-15 years we'll understand that whilst the neurodiverse are still in the minority it is definitely another case of the gods old 80-20 rule 🤪 and hopefully not much further than that will see the availability of an education system that supports this not the sit still and be quiet or suffer the consequences bullishit our kids are subject to now

Somebody else got in there with the link before I could complete my rantathon 😆

Interestingly, experts in the field declare prison populations to be upwards of 50% undiagnosed ADHD so it's definitely in societies interest to look into this

I'm finding this thread very interesting. I think I'm NT - I get overwhelmed at times by modern life but not in a debilitating way.

I work as a TA and interestingly a number of our autistic girls just adore knitting and crafting - I think they like having something to do with their hands and producing beautiful work.

I do wonder how some of our kids would have managed a 100 years ago - the kids who refuse to eat almost everything, the non verbal kids, the kids who don't engage with anyone around them?