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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to think it was never that complicated to define a woman.

527 replies

Abisequer · 26/03/2026 14:51

The International Olympic Committee (IOC) has ruled that eligibility for the women’s category of Olympic events will now be limited to biological females, starting from the LA 2028 Games.

AIBU to think the category ‘women’ was never complicated and the obfuscation by certain governing bodies has compromised fairness in sport for women.

Examples of obfuscation include claims that genital checking would be needed or that biological men with lowered testosterone would be on an even playing field with biological women.

AIBU to think it was never complicated to define a woman and a cheek swab is all it takes.

Article

Transgender women banned from female Olympic events in new IOC ruling

The International Olympic Committee has ruled that eligibility for the women’s category will now be limited to biological females

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/olympics/transgender-ban-ioc-female-category-gender-eligibility-b2946193.html

OP posts:
Thread gallery
23
Abisequer · 28/03/2026 11:28

I actually can’t believe a poster has come on here to question the validity of the women’s category being for biological females because Michael Phelps had big feet.

😂

OP posts:
VickyEadieofThigh · 28/03/2026 11:31

Abisequer · 28/03/2026 11:28

I actually can’t believe a poster has come on here to question the validity of the women’s category being for biological females because Michael Phelps had big feet.

😂

Ah, the 'Phelps feet = men should be allowed in women's sports' argument!

These clowns would have argued for Phelps being allowed in women's swimming events if he declared himself a woman.

Abisequer · 28/03/2026 11:42

Why is it always Michael Phelps too.

Why not Leon Marchand?

Poor Leon being left out of the 'he can’t be a man, he’s too super human’ needs own category debate?

OP posts:
Helleofabore · 28/03/2026 11:47

I think though if you trust only certain media and interviews with very limited people and you shun anything others and/or you think is fascist and far right (because people who are politically tribal have said so) then you might have heard that sound bite so often you never thought to analyse it for logic and coherency. It is part of the reason I laugh when people tell me that they won’t read something because it is hateful in their view. They end up missing out on that wider knowledge that challenges what they read.

Abisequer · 28/03/2026 12:00

And this reporting

"The Algerian is also open to taking a sex test to compete, saying last month: 'Of course, I would accept doing anything I'm required to do to participate in competitions. They should protect women, but they need to pay attention that while protecting women, they shouldn't hurt other women.'

Other women?

OP posts:
ThatCyanCat · 28/03/2026 15:57

Abisequer · 28/03/2026 12:00

And this reporting

"The Algerian is also open to taking a sex test to compete, saying last month: 'Of course, I would accept doing anything I'm required to do to participate in competitions. They should protect women, but they need to pay attention that while protecting women, they shouldn't hurt other women.'

Other women?

They always do that. They think you won't notice or be able to say, "Those are not other women because they're not women at all."

They think it's the most incredible linguistic sleight of hand. Like when my five year old does her magic trick of hiding the card behind her back and she thinks you didn't see it.

Firefly1987 · 28/03/2026 18:46

NotBadConsidering · 28/03/2026 08:18

And of course everyone who knew him then must have been shocked, SHOCKED I tell ya, to discover he was genetically male. They all just assumed that 15 year old, happy to be photographed bare chested among school friends, was lacking periods because she was running and training SO extra harder than all the other girls who were running and still having periods. Clearly they weren’t running hard enough, otherwise their menstruation would have been switched off too. So lazy.

🙄

I mean, people actually believe this 👆sort of description.

Agree with most of your points but it's possible to not have a period all the way up til around 17 I think? Some girls just start later than others and it doesn't have to be down to any health or training issue. Obviously not the case with Semenya anyway but I was nearly 16 before I started mine. Although now I feel like an outlier. I didn't even do any sports either, I was super lazy!

Helleofabore · 28/03/2026 19:35

Firefly1987 · 28/03/2026 18:46

Agree with most of your points but it's possible to not have a period all the way up til around 17 I think? Some girls just start later than others and it doesn't have to be down to any health or training issue. Obviously not the case with Semenya anyway but I was nearly 16 before I started mine. Although now I feel like an outlier. I didn't even do any sports either, I was super lazy!

The thing is also though, did you not show any sign of female puberty at all? No breast development before then, at all?

I would have thought it very unusual to have nothing at all before first period?

Firefly1987 · 28/03/2026 20:15

@Helleofabore yes I definitely did. So I totally agree on everything else. Although I suppose if I was very sporty and athletic that might not have been the case? I think my mum was 14 when she got hers so I guess being a couple months off 16 before I started didn't feel like a big deal. We're tall so I figured that was why.

Helleofabore · 28/03/2026 20:48

Firefly1987 · 28/03/2026 20:15

@Helleofabore yes I definitely did. So I totally agree on everything else. Although I suppose if I was very sporty and athletic that might not have been the case? I think my mum was 14 when she got hers so I guess being a couple months off 16 before I started didn't feel like a big deal. We're tall so I figured that was why.

Ok. Thanks for confirming

That is the thing though. I know sporty girls who didn’t start menstruation until they were 15 or so, but they did show signs of female puberty before that. i think you are saying that you did too. And that makes sense.

What doesn’t make sense is that these male athletes didn’t end up going to a doctor when absolutely no sign of female puberty was observed.

DeepBluDeer · 28/03/2026 21:10

ThatCyanCat · 28/03/2026 06:47

Mate, you're the one who brought people with DSDs into it like it's 2019 and insist on using a term they have roundly rejected and which totally misrepresents them. You also made up a ridiculous reason about why people had mentioned the relevance of developing countries because you don't know what you're talking about (we should not have assumed that level of knowledge from you, to be fair), so even if I didn't know what was in my own head, I'd know your latest made up assertion about it would be just as laughable.

And now you're hanging on it like a security blanket because deflection is all you've got. Women's sports are for women, men with DSDs are rightly excluded because they are men.

Why lie in every post? No, I did not bring up people with DSDs - my first post is on page 4, well into the discussion about people with DSDs.

And - again - I made very clear that I support the ruling, including as it relates to people with DSDs - but object to the wholesale labeling of them as cheats.

I know what I'm talking about, I just have no idea why you're going off on one at me.

NotBadConsidering · 28/03/2026 21:22

Abisequer · 28/03/2026 11:42

Why is it always Michael Phelps too.

Why not Leon Marchand?

Poor Leon being left out of the 'he can’t be a man, he’s too super human’ needs own category debate?

Because people know nothing about swimming, so repeat the same old tropes that assume Phelps was actually Aquaman.

DeepBluDeer · 28/03/2026 21:23

Helleofabore · 28/03/2026 08:04

I have noticed sometimes when people discuss the male athletes with DSDs that RED-S (Relative Energy Deficiency in Sports) comes up as a reason for dismissing lack of periods. I find there is something inconsistent with that .

For instance, puberty is not completely stopped it might mean delayed menstruation but there are still signs of female puberty. It also seems contradictory that an adolescent performing at a level to feed eventually into the Olympics has the physical development that happens in puberty without any puberty. In other words, puberty delivers growth and development that means the adolescent remains competitive to other athletes they are competing against. You don’t see prepubescent athletes in running events in the Olympics.

Therefore this discussion around RED-S seems to be not supported in the case of male athletes with DSDs. The argument follows that these male athletes were performing at such a high level that no female puberty occurred. Yet, those male athletes still had growth spurts and other physical development associated with puberty. There is a lot of inconsistency in that argument.

Of course, female athletes may experience menstrual disruption and puberty delays, but not to the extent people try to leverage for why these male athletes’ lack of menstruation was dismissed. And runners don’t tend to start that excessive training that would cause RED-S until well after first signs of female puberty should have been noticed. Gymnasts and dancers, perhaps will have delays of first signs of puberty because they have been training from a very young ages. i don’t believe they don’t have any sign of menstruation at all by early teens though. No spotting at all? No breast development at all? This is highly unlikely. Slowed is not the same as completely absent.

I would like to see the evidence that these child runners are going through the same intense training process as gymnasts before they are showing signs of puberty.

Perhaps there is a case of these athletes being lied to by their athletic support teams if they asked them about lack of periods and breast development. That would make those teams complicit in misleading and deceiving the athlete.

However, the use of never having periods on training and nutrition as a reason for these male people to not know they were male seems to have large holes in my opinion. If a runner had not experienced the start of puberty they would be very small in body size and I doubt they would be nationally competitive.

If they had not shown any signs of female puberty by their mid teens, I doubt they would not have noticed and discussed it with parents or guardians. Or coaches.

The whole argument relies on absence of menstruation being seen as the same as disrupted menstruation.

And I think that makes complete sense in a developed country context - that someone experiencing those symptoms would have access to appropriate services, knowledge and resources in order for a diagnosis to be made.

But, when we're talking about people living in poorer regions of developing countries, in communities that might have some awareness of other causes for menstrual absence or disruption, I don't think it unreasonable or implausible that they would accept other explanations given to them (even if you and I know them to be medically unsound in context).

Doesn't mean they belong in women's sports (they don't), but wouldn't justify being tarred as a cheat.

NotBadConsidering · 28/03/2026 21:39

“Oh, the poor dumb Africans don’t know how the female body works like we do, bless them.”

Do you even hear yourself? Semenya looked like a teenage boy, didn’t develop breasts and never had periods. Humans thousands of years ago would have put 2 and 2 together FFS.

ThatCyanCat · 28/03/2026 21:56

DeepBluDeer · 28/03/2026 21:10

Why lie in every post? No, I did not bring up people with DSDs - my first post is on page 4, well into the discussion about people with DSDs.

And - again - I made very clear that I support the ruling, including as it relates to people with DSDs - but object to the wholesale labeling of them as cheats.

I know what I'm talking about, I just have no idea why you're going off on one at me.

Ok, so you have been arguing for days, clinging to outdated and misleading terms that suggest men with DSDs aren't men, telling us it's "not that simple" for them and suggesting we are going to uncover a deluge of men who don't know they're men and it would harm the women's game to exclude such men, implying racism against people who discussed the relevance of being in a developing country with a DSD... because you just want to feel sorry for them? And you want people to think they aren't cheats because they must have still thought they were women even while they rode their male coaches' shoulders with their legs pressed around their heads and had independent labs confirming them as male?

I have great news for you. You don't need anyone's permission or any Internet argument to feel sorry for these guys. And even better news: since you now say you aren't making any case for men with DSDs in the women's game (indeed there is none) and you totally agree they don't belong there... the new ruling upholds that! Isn't that great for women who will no longer be ousted from competition and podiums, or face disproportionate risk of injury? It's wonderful news, right?

The bad news is, they're still cheats. Even if they did think they were women at the time (wanna buy a bridge?), they now know they aren't but they aren't returning their medals, in fact they're mostly still complainaning and arguing and insisting they should be eligible. But you can be sad about that if you want to!

Helleofabore · 28/03/2026 22:20

DeepBluDeer · 28/03/2026 21:23

And I think that makes complete sense in a developed country context - that someone experiencing those symptoms would have access to appropriate services, knowledge and resources in order for a diagnosis to be made.

But, when we're talking about people living in poorer regions of developing countries, in communities that might have some awareness of other causes for menstrual absence or disruption, I don't think it unreasonable or implausible that they would accept other explanations given to them (even if you and I know them to be medically unsound in context).

Doesn't mean they belong in women's sports (they don't), but wouldn't justify being tarred as a cheat.

Except that you assume these DSDs are not known about in those areas. If I remember correctly, I believe I read somewhere that Semenya had a family member (cousin or more distant relative with the same DSD). I also remember reading that there was a higher rate of the DSD in the region of South Africa Semenya comes from. The DSDs have a higher rate within families who intermarry.

There are so many inconsistencies in the arguments some people put forward as blanket statements to support these male athletes or to minimise their personal agency in the decisions they have made as adults. Adults in a time of information being very readily available.

I don’t believe that many of these athletes have not known they were male since at least mid teens when they experienced absolutely no sign of female puberty yet were experiencing growth spurts etc. I also don’t believe that medical treatment and knowledge is so very poor that no one would have sought medical investigation into the lack of female puberty.

DeepBluDeer · 28/03/2026 22:28

NotBadConsidering · 28/03/2026 21:39

“Oh, the poor dumb Africans don’t know how the female body works like we do, bless them.”

Do you even hear yourself? Semenya looked like a teenage boy, didn’t develop breasts and never had periods. Humans thousands of years ago would have put 2 and 2 together FFS.

I'm not talking about Semenya (or Africans), specifically.

DSDs do not have a uniform presentation. Someone with PAIS, for example, could present with a short vagina and experience breast growth during puberty (and wont have the usual male volume or distribution of muscle tissue). They won't, though, experience a period. If they are given another explanation for the absence, why is it so unfathomable that they could accept it?

This doesn't mean that every instance of a DSD (or even every or most instances of PAIS) could plausibly have gone unsuspected or undetected - but the less clear cut cases are more likely to missed in developing countries.

nolongersurprised · 28/03/2026 22:32

DeepBluDeer · 28/03/2026 21:23

And I think that makes complete sense in a developed country context - that someone experiencing those symptoms would have access to appropriate services, knowledge and resources in order for a diagnosis to be made.

But, when we're talking about people living in poorer regions of developing countries, in communities that might have some awareness of other causes for menstrual absence or disruption, I don't think it unreasonable or implausible that they would accept other explanations given to them (even if you and I know them to be medically unsound in context).

Doesn't mean they belong in women's sports (they don't), but wouldn't justify being tarred as a cheat.

The study I posted upthread demonstrated that girls in athletics DIDN’T have primary amenorrhea.

Why would athletes then be told that it’s normal for periods to have NEVER started? it doesn’t add up.

nolongersurprised · 28/03/2026 22:38

Maybe we’re back to : “poor black African coaches also don’t understand how bodies work” 🙄

murasaki · 28/03/2026 22:40

nolongersurprised · 28/03/2026 22:38

Maybe we’re back to : “poor black African coaches also don’t understand how bodies work” 🙄

Yes, it's all terribly racist.

DeepBluDeer · 28/03/2026 22:45

nolongersurprised · 28/03/2026 22:32

The study I posted upthread demonstrated that girls in athletics DIDN’T have primary amenorrhea.

Why would athletes then be told that it’s normal for periods to have NEVER started? it doesn’t add up.

The study you posted simply did not include any instances of primary amenorrhea among the runners participating in the study.

It can and does occur:

https://www.womensrunning.com/health/a-top-college-runner-opens-up-about-her-struggle-with-amenorrhea/

Photo: Ben Crawford
Emma Abrahamson is speaking openly about her experience with amenorrhea.

A Top College Runner Opens Up About Her Struggle With Amenorrhea

Emma Abrahamson didn’t get her first period until age 22, after she stopped training. She wants other young women and girls to learn from her story.

https://www.womensrunning.com/health/a-top-college-runner-opens-up-about-her-struggle-with-amenorrhea?scope=anon

DeepBluDeer · 28/03/2026 22:46

murasaki · 28/03/2026 22:40

Yes, it's all terribly racist.

I think its pretty racist of the PPs, yes - I posted about an athlete from rural India, and everyone's suddenly talking about Africans.

murasaki · 28/03/2026 22:47

DeepBluDeer · 28/03/2026 22:46

I think its pretty racist of the PPs, yes - I posted about an athlete from rural India, and everyone's suddenly talking about Africans.

Fair point.

NotBadConsidering · 28/03/2026 22:51

DeepBluDeer · 28/03/2026 22:28

I'm not talking about Semenya (or Africans), specifically.

DSDs do not have a uniform presentation. Someone with PAIS, for example, could present with a short vagina and experience breast growth during puberty (and wont have the usual male volume or distribution of muscle tissue). They won't, though, experience a period. If they are given another explanation for the absence, why is it so unfathomable that they could accept it?

This doesn't mean that every instance of a DSD (or even every or most instances of PAIS) could plausibly have gone unsuspected or undetected - but the less clear cut cases are more likely to missed in developing countries.

No, you’re talking about a random Indian person. Semenya is a case study in how what you’re claiming about Indians is equally likely to be false.

nolongersurprised · 28/03/2026 23:07

DeepBluDeer · 28/03/2026 22:45

The study you posted simply did not include any instances of primary amenorrhea among the runners participating in the study.

It can and does occur:

https://www.womensrunning.com/health/a-top-college-runner-opens-up-about-her-struggle-with-amenorrhea/

Yes, it can occur and does occur but it’s not at all common. The athlete in your article saw endocrinologists, had bone scans, dietitian advice because it’s not usual for girls in athletics to have primary amenorrhoea.

She had a whole heap of tests done and saw specialists because it’s not common at all.

Do you think that poor, black and brown athletes who are selected for elite pathways have really bad coaches who don’t understand how bodies work?

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