Jobs for introverts?

[PoliteSquid]

My DS lost his job after 5 weeks because he wasn’t proactive or outgoing enough. This was NOT a customer facing role - it was an entry level manufacturing job in the sort of factory where you do the same job over and over.

We’re looking at engineering technician and mechanical engineering apprenticeships and every single one talks about wanting a “proactive and outgoing” individual. He has a letter saying he’s none of those things. He is naturally introverted and sometimes shy. I’m just so frustrated about the role descriptions. It puts him off even applying!

Where do all the quiet, shy people work?!

I think you need to recognise that this is not about 'introversion'. I'm an introvert. I need considerable amounts of time alone to 'compensate' for socialising. However, I am not at all quiet or shy. I am a socially confident person who thoroughly enjoys socialising, and has a job that involves a lot of public speaking. Introversion refers only to the way you recharge your social battery. #

The problem isn't that your son is an introvert, it's that he is shy and unconfident around other people. if it's lost him a job, then it's something he needs to rectify.

Though the reason for letting him go sounds a bit odd. Are you sure this is the full truth about why he lost the job?

What do you mean that he has a letter saying he’s none of those things? If he has a diagnosis of some kind then he can’t be fired for not being outgoing. What were the specific incidents that led to him being let go? Were they able to give examples?

Overall, it’s important not to read job descriptions too literally (which is hard if you are literal minded, as often happens for autistic people, for example).

But ‘proactive and outgoing’ doesn’t need to mean you’re the life and soul of the party, but that you can speak up if you have a question, that you can learn processes and spot what needs doing (after training) rather than passively waiting to be told what to do all the time, and that you are able to hold a conversation with other people, or at least don’t avoid doing so when a conversation is needed.

There are plenty of shy people in all sorts of lines of work - particularly in engineering and technical roles. Remember that the people who write the job ads are HR people (or AI) not the bosses themselves, who may in fact really not want someone particularly bubbly and chatty on their team.

Alarm monitoring centres overnight. Occasionally have to speak to the police but that’s about it, mostly computer work
our IT people are also pretty introverted

I would also read 'not proactive and outgoing' as 'not asking for help resolving problems or gaps in knowledge'. Does your DS know how to ask for help or does he tend to try to muddle through, doing his best but maybe incorrectly?

Yes, I think this must be at the heart of it.

Introverted doesn't mean not being proactive, though. I am an introvert. This morning before work I found out that the two big pieces of work today which are normally shared between several people are being affected by staff shortages and fall to me to manage single-handedly. Immediately, I sat down and though which bits are essential, which aren't, which might need additional support, wrote some emails, contacted some other colleagues and when I rang my boss, I already had a solution figured out and relevant people committing to giving support.

I think you are conflating two things.
It sounds more a confidence issue. You can be introverted but still need to be able to get on with managers and peers and for example ask for help with a task or ask for more work.
Eg I wouldn’t be impressed with an employee sitting there as he didn’t have part A when if he had asked a colleague the colleague would have said get it from Bob in stores or whatever. Then not having confidence to find stores or speak to Bob.
Would a volunteer role perhaps help with these skills.

Us randoms on the Internet are just guessing, OP. Could he write and ask for more constructive feedback? He can't change his personality

Yes I’m sure - I read the probation review letter. He didn’t talk to people, ask questions or explain why he was so quiet. The letter is brutal. He’s only just 18!

When I asked DS if he understood the feedback he said “why would I ask questions if I don’t have any?”
On the day he was let go he chose to stay and finish his work because he didn’t want to leave it half done. And in terms of the quality of work it was always good - again his letter acknowledges that. He’s quiet and shy and as a PP has acknowledged no one can change his personality!

This is another example of people not understanding what “introvert” means.

An introvert is someone who needs to recharge after being in social situations. Its not the same as being shy or anxious and it certainly isn’t about proactivity.

I understand that this must be frustrating for your son but please don’t encourage him to hide behind an inaccurate label. You’re not helping him at all.

It may be that he needs to work on putting his hand up for things more and displaying more authority. That’s something he can get better at with time and feedback.

Poor lad. It must be a big blow to his confidence. I’d really try and encourage him to see it wasn’t a good fit and a better fit will be out there.
Apprenticeships are ultra competitive and often involve assessment days, it might not be for him and would dent confidence further.
Whilst it seems harsh them giving feedback means he knows what he needs to work on.
Would he do a customer facing type job for the skills, my dd had her eyes truly opened pt at McDonalds.
What are his hobbies? Any scope for building skills through those eg coaching children, scouting volunteer etc.

The whole point about asking questions is to demonstrate curiosity. Someone with minimal curiosity is likely to be less engaged and learn more slowly.

Someone who doesn’t show any interest in the why of how things are done is not likely to be an effective problem solver but rather waits to be told what to do.

I guess its worth asking why he doesn’t feel able to ask questions?

I think it's a real shame, especially after only 5 weeks. If he was doing the job to the required standard it shouldn't be his personality being the reason.

Perhaps there is more to it (from the company's side) than meets the eye?

It is tough and demoralising, especially at that age. I hope your soon finds somewhere soon that doesn't have an issue with his personality.

Btw, job adverts tend to contain a lot of BS!

But being 'quiet and shy' isn't a 'personality'. He sounds as if he's lacking in social competence, if he doesn't see that his silence means that the person issuing him instructions is left with no idea whether he's completely clueless and afraid to ask questions, thinks he gets it but doesn't, or is zoned out and incurious, or is completely up to speed.

He could have signalled that he understood the processes by saying so, and that he would ask if he had any questions that weren't occurring to him now, or indeed anything that made it clear he was conscious, listening and fully understood!

No one wants to have to try to interpret the silence of an employee who can't or won't communicate, or to have to try to extrapolate whether they will be able to communicate with other employees if they are promoted to a position of authority later on.

OP, this is going to sounds strange, but you're taking this too personally, instead of taking it on the chin as valuable feedback about a gap in your son's learning that you can help him address. He clearly doesn't know how to get on in the world of work, which is fine, as he's only 18. But did he never learn public speaking or debating in school, or have a part time job or is he (and you) just hoping he can get by never stepping outside his comfort zone? If so, you are doing him a massive disservice by allowing him to think like this.

Unfortunately, in the UK, people don't like silence and they are suspicious/feel uncomfortable around those that never speak or make an effort to enage with others. It makes them feel ill at ease. This may very well be their problem, but this is the world your son lives in. He needs to practice. He needs to be taught how to engage with adults/peers/those that are senior to him (and understand why it is important). Greet people with a smile and a 'good morning'. Ask if anyone needs help before the end of the day and say goodbye before you leave. Ask how someone's weekend has been in the break room or when working in close proximity. If the people next to him are talking about football and try to engage him, he should participate - even if he doesn't like football, say he's not into it but loves tennis or say, actually, he's not into sport but he's building his own laptop or is into film and just saw the latest x (whatever the film is).

The above doesn't have to mean he's chatting all the time or pretending to be the life and soul of the party. He just has to have basic conversational and social skills, which can be taught. Of course he doesn't have to ask questions if he doesn't have any (why would a junior not have questions though? Is he only doing the bare minimum? Is he too smart for what he's doing? If the latter, he should take an interest and ask something relevant - what's the next step? That's interesting, what sort of clients buy that? How did you get started here? etc), but no one wants to work with someone that can be mistaken for sullen or meek. They want someone they can work comfortably beside every day, who will speak up if they are hurt/in danger/notice a mistake/aren't sure of something/have a laugh at a joke or a 2min chat about the weekend.

Some tough love - you and your son need to toughen up. This is work. It's ok he got it wrong this time. He's young and will make loads more mistakes (as we all do). But the answer is not to hide under his metaphorical bed and give up. Accept he didn't behave in the way expected, think about whether there was an element of truth and, if there was, plan how he can behave differently next time. (He can even use it in an interview in terms of questions about difficult situations and what he's learned, how he would adapt next time.) It's not the huge deal it feels right now. He tried one job; it wasn't a good fit. That will happen a lot more in life. He just needs to keep going.

That doesn't sound like a sound reason for firing someone

What @C152said . Great response

He’s in his probation period so they can let him go if he’s not a good fit.

When you have a job you need to a make an effort to acquire the skills you don’t have. I would focus on that. Maybe he could do a drama class or something similar to build confidence and people skills.

It must have been pretty extreme for him to lose his job over it.

You can fire someone if you think their skills aren’t adequate for the role.

Most jobs require some social skills, even if not public facing. And all jobs require a degree of curiosity about what is involved and some proactivity.

If someone displays neither of those attributes its not unreasonable for the employer to conclude that they are not the best candidate.

This isn’t the boy’s fault; he’s fresh out of school and has a world of things to learn. But its also an opportunity to learn these skills.

I would not steer him in the direction of thinking that he should limit himself to looking for jobs where minimal critical thinking or ambition are required. Not least because there are fewer and fewer jobs like that around, they pay less, are less satisfying and there are fewer opportunities to advance.

Its a real learning experience for him, albeit frustrating now. But telling him he is an introvert and therefore it can’t be helped is not going to support him in learning.

I'm an introvert and I prefer spending my weekends pottering at home. I don't enjoy social gathering. I work in software development and I would say it's very good for introverts. However, it's a very hard field to enter now because LLM does a better job at being junior devs than humans.

I would imagine engineering technician and mechanical engineering apprenticeships are good for introverts. The people he need to deal with should be the same familar faces in his team.

As other says, proactive and outgoing is not introvert or extrovert qualities. I'm very good at standing my ground and being a strong advocate for my technical area. I'm also very good at articulating technical issues. My only comments from managers over the years was that I can come across as too passionate and enthusiastic about the techinical issues. (Think mad scientist). If your son can be that, he can do it.

Do you know anyone in these areas who are introverts? Maybe get them to talk to your son? From my own introvert's perspective, what he need to develop is confidence

My painfully shy cousin makes and sells doorknobs for a living.
Some shy people get on well in accounting/payroll/finance. But the one accountant in my family is a massive extrovert.

So I think it's more about being confident and capable than needing to be dancing around and making everyone laugh.

If he understood the instructions and didn’t need clarification, there would be no questions. It’s punishing someone for being quick on the uptake.
There really isn’t a reason to socialize at work. That is optional.

Nothing you mention is about the quality of his work. I don’t understand why he was let go.

I don’t have suggestions for work adjacent to the kind he has been doing. There are jobs out there though for all kinds of people. I’m an autistic introvert and very happy, but went down a very different path.

That’s harsh. I was quiet and shy at his age but colleagues were nice to me and really brought me out of my shell.