How many kids have left the school? (VAT)

[limeandwater]

It's been long enough now that I think we can make a reasonable conclusion on how bad it has hurt school.

To be honest at our school I only know 3 pupils that have left because of the VAT so not as bad as many feared.

Still heartbreaking for the kids though.

VAT exemption is a tax break and the private schools that are now closing because it has been closed were failing organizations propped up by this tax breaks

(although i actually suspect this is only partially the case as the falling pupil numbers is a large contributor factor but as the poster I responded to had a flounce about how the govt were attacking all children I felt compelled to reply)

make sense?

“Function as a luxury” is so disingenuous. It is a luxury. People pay for it for the advantage. The “higher taxpayers later” point just justifies inequality. And calling it choice ignores that it is only a choice for a privileged few.

Pay your VAT on your luxury service. Ta.

Put far better than I could, agree 100%

This is the case at our prep.Year 2 and above are all healthy, but Y1 and Reception are less than 50% of a normal intake. The difference is stark and unprecedented.

What are the lies? Read the documents regarding the advice the government were given they were forced to reveal during the court case. Also have a quick read up on the definition of ‘net’, I understand it is ignorance fuelling this aggression, but try and tone it down a bit. I’m not the one trying to close your child’s school.

Its really silly to keep arguing with me about this , the legislation is very clear that this a tax on ‘full time education and vocational training’ of people aged between 4 and 18 in northern Ireland and 5 and 18 in the rest of the U.K. It applies to every single child unless they are in a tax payer funded school. That’s just a fact.

I don’t believe that there has been an increase in the number of private school closures. Annually tens of private schools have been closing over the past decade or so and the numbers remain pretty constant. The difference is now when one closes everyone blames VAT. Clearly more consolidation in the market will happen in coming years.

I have a child in a private school and I agree with this.

you mean they'll take the higher paying jobs and perpetuate the inequality - oh yes, such a great deal for everyone else

I think this is real crux of people who support education taxation, it’s tall poppy syndrome. It’s the mistaken belief that by pulling down others, you improve your life .., until you want a Dr anyway. It seems to run through all labours economic policy with quite predictable results,

Yes, in my town most of the closures started to ramp up after 2010. Many have merged rather than closed. None have actually closed since the VAT.

You fundamentally misunderstand. Is this deliberate?

It's a tax on private schools. 7% of children. It's not a tax on education.

Care to link to these court papers?

This never makes sense.

DH and I earn well (pay HR tax and can't claim CB) but would need at least £20k from post tax salary per child to pay for private. That would be for a mediocre private school with no amazing facilities hundreds of miles from London. Houses and mortgages are not in anyway cheap unfortunately.

We may have been able to do it for one child but never 2 (or the 3 we have).

We both come from families where private schools were the norm a generation and 2 back - grandparents who were doctors, barristers, head teachers. None of our extended family (all of whom have good solid jobs with decent pay) can afford private for their own dc.

LOL no it doesn’t make sense. Children’s education has always been tax free, it’s just emotive use of language to try to try and convince people that some 6 year old girls in boaters are in some way stealing from them.

Do you really think kids going to private school are inherently smarter "taller poppies"? Or is it just that they’re given more resources, smaller classes, better networks and a head start that others don’t get. That’s not merit, that’s advantage. And calling any pushback “tall poppy syndrome” is just a convenient way to avoid engaging with the fact that the system itself reinforces inequality

Pay your taxes on your luxury advantage-granting services.

My child is in y7 in private and her year is under half the size of the y10 there.

1 in 4 children in her year has left since September or is planning to by the end of the year. I don’t know their reasons but it is very worrying.

It applies to all children not 7% of them, what’s so difficult to understand? Just go and put your child in a non state school and you’ll be paying a 20% tax. People nip and out of independent education, maybe for GCSEs or a levels, being bullied, specialist help, receive scholarships or bursaries. No child is exempt from education tax, no child. You can take the tax payer funded allocation snd go where you’re told and or pay 20% tax to fund your own child education. This is a fact, if you don’t like it then stop defending it.

And it's not just VAT. In some ways, that's the least of it.

The indy schools also lost relief from business rate taxes and, like many other businesses, had to restructure their finances to accomodate the increase in NI contributions. I think these, especially the business taxes, have hit schools' finances much harder, even the strong ones. One bursar reckoned these other factors had added £1million to the school's budget.

So when an indy school closes, I think VAT was only a part of the financial story.

And PPs are correct that the low/decreasing birthrate also plays a part.

Then my child would be in that 7%.

It's only the children in private schools that are included.

Trying to say it's for all children is bizarre.

Well I'm not lying. I am hundreds of miles from London. The school I pay for doesn't have amazing facilities because its old and its costs a bloody fortune to maintain. But it does have small classes, amazing pastoral care and a huge amount of flexibility to allow kids to work in a way that makes it possible for them to be in mainstream education. I live in an ex council semi that cost less than 150k. It makes perfect sense if you don't assume that being out of the SE is unthinkable.

I was going to respond to this but @SapphOhNo has done it for me. I'll just add that former state school pupils make just as good doctors as former private school pupils.

You are conflating private schools with all children’s education for self interest and potential political dogma.

No. Tall poppy syndrome would be attempting to cut down those who succeed, in the context of the pp I responded to who thinks taxing children’s education will stop these kids ‘getting all the best jobs’ as if limiting education options will in some way help anyone. Crabs in a bucket, attempting to pull each other down. It’s core Labour. Like o say goes straight out the window, when someone needs a Dr

We are the kind of people in the margins of being able to afford private school in the past - if we had less children/cheaper house/grandparents support. We have got as far as looking around on a couple of occasions.

Regardless of VAT, we would absolutely never consider it now. Our mortgage went up massively due to rate changes, our council tax is now obscene (really really ridiculous), our food shop is out of control, our dc play a sport where training and competing fees have hugely increased, dh bonus scheme has been modified (and he doesn't get it anymore), the fees for the private school near us have gone up as have things like the coach fees (thousands) and trip costs.

Many families are being priced out of private schools - more through CoL increases and wage depreciation than solely due to vat. Couple that with plummeting birth rates and increased Home Ed and the customer pool is shrinking fast.

School based sixth forms are closing en masses due to the huge variety of post 16 qualifications now available at colleges that schools can't offer.

The tax is on the child, all be it who pays the fees, not the schools. It is you who are conflating the two .

You do know great doctors come from state educated children too?

Do you disagree that private education is a luxury service that grants advantages to children?

Nobody is saying they don’t. Why try and attempt to paint the state school children as victims in some way when they are not the ones being forced out of their schools? There’s more than enough demand for Drs without us having to close successful schools that produce a higher net proportion of Drs.
If you want independent school options closed then just say so, don’t pretend it’s for any other reason than ideology,