AIBU to think a foetus is alive before birth?

[Mmmchocolatebuttons]

I had a discussion with someone, who believes that a foetus is not alive, until the point they are born. They also asserted that this was not an uncommon view. I have a hard time believing this so I'm putting it to the AIBU poll.

To be clear, I'm pro choice, but I do believe that, for example, a 30 week foetus is factually, scientifically considered to be alive.

Surely, even if you're pro-choice all the way up until birth, you accept that the foetus is alive?

YABU = A foetus is not alive, until birth.
YANBU = A foetus is alive in the womb.

The concept of alive is a tricky one scientifically.

my kids in school were taught a mnemonic for working out if something is alive:

MRSGREN.

can’t remember what it stands for.

it is generally the case that babies in the womb have fewer rights legally than babies that have been born. A baby that has been born is definitely a person whereas a baby in the womb may or may not be.

It can only be alive, or dead. There are no alternatives. It cannot be dead, as it has a heartbeat and is growing. So...it is alive.

The thing is a 30 week old fetus could possibly (probably) survive outside the womb.
A 12 week fetus couldn’t.

It’s alive. You can feel it moving and see it moving on a scan. It just hasn’t come into the outside world yet so is relying on the mother for its survival.

To the woman carrying that baby it is very much alive imo. How could you not class a moving foetus as not alive?

Has this person ever seen a 20 week scan? Or felt a baby kicking in the womb? What about operations that take place on the baby prior to birth?

How do they think the ‘becoming alive’ process works during the birth? Is there some kind of alchemy or is it just a ‘jump start’ (although obviously a heart rate is detectable long before birth) What state do they think the foetus exists prior to birth?

Is your friend male out of interest?

I think biologically speaking it is - even (say) an apple seed is, because they actually slowly respire all the time.

But people's beliefs about "soul" etc is separate from biology.

Fwiw I am also pro choice for other women but wouldn't have wanted a termination myself. I'm sterilised now so I won't have to risk needing one

We were taught GRIMREF: Growth, Reproduction, Irritability, Movement, Respiration Excretion and Feeding.

Of course it's alive. Up until about 24 weeks of pregnancy it's unable to survive on its own, but it is absolutely alive.

Yes its alive. But i also don't think abortion is murder when done early in pregnancy. Or later for medical reasons

This

I'm pro choice too but the foetus is definitely alive. That's biological fact.

How does this person view stillbirth then if the foetus never lived in the first place?

Of course the baby is alive in the womb, anyone who has ever carried a baby could tell you that.

Alive is different from being able to survive outside the womb. Many things are alive that we don’t give much respect to so although a foetus is a living organism I don’t think it is a relevant fact.

You could argue that before a certain number of weeks it is part of the living woman, like her arm or leg.

I don't take this view myself but it is logically sound as the foetus can't survive outside her body until a certain gestation

Legally a 30week fetus isn’t a person.

They only gain personhood when born and no longer dependent on maternal life support.

So I guess this means they aren’t legally alive.

It's obviously alive, it's part of a living system. But, a leaf is alive. An amoeba is alive. Bacteria are alive. Being alive doesn't tell you much about the alive thing, if that's the only bit of information you are considering.

Female with children. In a discussion about the recent decriminalisation of abortion.

It used to be believed that a foetus was not alive until about twenty weeks which was when it became what they called “ensouled”

lots of things biologically are in the zone between alive and not.

rocks are not alive but are generally not described as dead because dead implies was alive and now is not.

bacteria are in the zone between alive and not alive.

The foetus is alive, but it is not a baby. It is a foetus

I think it's alive in the sense that it's alive rather than dead. I think giving it legal personhood before it's born does more harm than good though and that is a logical cut off in the legal sense.

What a silly question OP.

If it's not alive then it's dead, isn't it?

Of course it’s alive.

It is viable? - depends on gestation

Does it have rights that supersede its mother? - nope

Unfortunately Irish abortion law for many years saw its rights as fully equal to that of the woman carrying it.

It is alive as opposed to dead (but lots of things are alive, including lichen etc, we eat things that were alive until we harvested them).
It is not capable of independent life, so in that way it is similarly alive to a very badly injured person on life support. (Although both a third trimester baby and a person on life support might have a possibility of self-supporting survival if 'unhooked' at that point).
Key differences include:

• all things being equal, a baby should eventually become self-supporting but many people on life support might not.
• a baby is inside a second person who is definitely fully alive, rather than being supported by a machine.
• a foetus has never been self-supportingly alive but a person on life support almost always has been first (this matters as being born is a legal milestone).