AIBU to be fed up with colleagues repeatedly off sick?

[IngridsLittleToe]

I'm going to get my arse handed to me and I don't care. Sick staff....I'm so over feeling sympathetic. I'm not talking really sick staff...I'm talking repeated back ache/gynae problems/migraine/back ache/sore throat/cold/depression/back ache/sinusitis/cold/sore big toe....

They have been on repeated sickness absence management and pull it back from the brink each time. Only to start all over again. Years and years of this. The rest of the team have to pick up the pieces, cancel their jobs to cover someone else's and the sickie doesn't have any loyalty at all.

The whole time they are sick they manage to socialise and do a voluntary role. Any attempt to manage the sickness is met with claims of bullying and then they go sick with anxiety.

All on full pay.

AIBU to think they are shamelessly playing the system and should be sacked

@MoonBeamsBright YOU are not who we are discussing. I promise you. I'd be covering your work, giving you flexibility time and approaching you to tell you to use it. That's a lot of stuff to deal with

Myself and colleagues would be surrounding you with support. I hope you are getting that

I’m really sorry to hear about the difficulties you are facing.

It highlights how important it is for people with genuine need to get the support they deserve.

@moonbeamsbright you are the sort of person affected by the people who take time willy nilly. It's obvious you're trying to be present at work. I sincerely hope work are giving you the support you need.

Yet again you are not responding to what I said in ignoring the point about equivalency.

A broken hand would clearly prevent a person from working in some professions that rely upon manual dexterity and equally impact their ability to do non work tasks that required the same.

It might not prevent a person working in a role where that was not a requirement but potentially have a greater impact on daily life such as not shopping as they could not safely drive to the supermarket but fine to pop to the local shop for a single bag of groceries.

In respect of MH, it’s a very broad spectrum of conditions where impact, capability and recovery needs are highly variable and also then need to contextually considered in respect of the job.

If that condition means a person is too unwell to their job but able to participate in activities outside it that place equivalent stressors/challenges on them then it’s not unreasonable to question why that is.

Absolutely this ^

Recovery from MH is not black and white. It is not being too unwell one day and being fit for work the next.
In that time, people can and do try and get back to normal activities.

I could meet friends when I was off sick, but I could not do my job. I was signed off by my GP and also OH. But it would be stupid for me to stay at home and only leave my house when I was fit to go back to work. I had to get out and do things as part of my recovery.

Seeing friends does not put the same stress as work on them.

I think the difference between someone like Moonbeam and others is the way they talk about work. Others talks about definitely not being able to work at all....constant constant defence of not being able to work AT ALL. Moonbeam talks about her efforts to be present (above what I would expect in those circumstances).

I've had staff come to work in plaster casts. They adapt what they do. They get lifts in. Colleagues usually happy to support them because they recognise the effort. Some might just go sick for the duration. Choice

it depends on the job. Some people in a plaster cast could not work in their job so would have to be signed off.

For me, I was told I was not allowed to work by OH.

Well to repeat again then this is not a thread about you is it? Yet you seem desperate to make it so.

Again, when OP is saying someone off sick should not be in a cafe or shopping... that can apply to anyone.

Quite.

The considerable disparity between the impact of the cited health condition on the ability to work versus the ability to do “life” (and especially nice things in life) should not be challenged apparently….

Maybe I’m just out of touch and should really be far less skeptical and supportive of colleges whose health challenges and sporadic periods of wellbeing are perfectly aligned with annual sickness period reconciliations and/or manifest for year after year just under the maximum HR mandatory intervention threshold, whilst simultaneously being able to spend time when not working doing activities as (or significantly more) demanding than their job.

I agree with you OP and I don’t think - having worked in both- that it’s purely a public sector issue either.

Currently managing someone who was about to be formally performance managed because whenever they were asked to do something (within their job description) that they didn’t like would either refuse or pressure someone more junior into doing it and is now signed off for at least 4 weeks with “anxiety and stress” I suspect I’ll get an occupational health report that tells me to give her less and easier work to do despite the fact that she already does far less than everyone else in the team and is paid more or the same.

I am really annoyed with myself because during her recruitment process a long period of illness along the same lines was disclosed at her last employer but I agreed to proceed because people get ill and it’s not fair to be prejudiced against people on that basis. Looking back I would have made a different decision, I wouldn’t take the risk again and that impacts all of us who have had genuine health issues.

I have no issue supporting employees who are ill or have difficult things going on in their lives. Have had both myself and having a supportive manager and colleagues made a huge difference but let’s not pretend as colleagues and managers we can’t tell the difference between those people and the ones who are absolutely taking the piss.

Fundamentally disagree with the I am
signed off sick from work not life” trope as well. In most cases, especially when office work is concerned, if you’re ok to go shopping and meet up with friends you’re ok to work at least part of a working day.

The purpose of OH is to protect the employer from allegations of risky employment. So if I go along and tell them I have RSI tomorrow they would recommend reduced duties. A self reported condition.

I doubt very much that a diagnostic test is used in most OH reports. It's usually taking a history from a person who chooses how they present themselves.

I can't work as it causes me distress.

Moonbeam wouldn't need an OH referral. It's obvious she needs support.

Xeno I imagine OH adds to your own personal perception of your ability to work. I'd seriously suggest you pause to consider if that's doing you favours or trapping your own wellbeing. What medical diagnostic, quantifiable, tests were sought to assess your ability to work?

OH nurse/Dr's and GPs know that if they refuse sick notes or write letters suggesting someone can work, that person will be making another appointment and be sicker until they get that letter. So they just write the sick notes to cut down on the time.

Again I have to repeat this is not true for post op, serious illness etc etc. It can be true for self reported symptoms and is often true for self reported symptoms in recurrent sickness.

Sick notes are mostly genuine. But some are pragmatic

I agree, OP.
Sick leave is there to support people who are genuinely sick.
People who milk the system really madden me. Management don't put in temporary cover like they would for mat leave. So repeated or long-term absence puts pressure on the other team members and breeds resentment.
Worse, if it's public sector then it's public money the person is wasting. And that impacts on us all.

Long post alert and 2 disclosures from me to start with:

1. I’m an Employee Relations specialist and one of the dreaded HR people (boo, hiss).
2. I have a relatively well managed chronic health condition and I have had times when I’ve had to take time off.

I don’t think OP is unreasonable at all. There are employees who play the system and it does a disservice to those who are genuinely unwell. It’s unsurprising that managers do become jaded and think everyone is trying it on. I also agree there are many risk averse HR professionals, who don’t help. Incidentally I’d recommend reading the EAT judgment in McAllister v Commissioners for Her Majesty's Revenue And Customs (2018) for ideas. You can fairly dismiss people even in cases of disability-related absences. The medical capability process needs to be used more often. McAllister’s sickness record due to anxiety and depression wasn’t exactly the worst I’ve come across either.

The private sector isn’t perfect but I couldn’t work in the public sector again. It’s no wonder many others in the thread commented how they’ve seen the same issues where they work/have worked in the public sector. It is the best sector to be employed if you’re a malingerer. One of my first experiences with a malingerer was one of my managers in the Civil Service. Off sick every year for at least half of it. As she was off all the time, unsurprisingly other people took the mickey. Morale was poor and the best staff didn’t stay.

Things I’ve noticed from various private sector jobs that really help with the sort of employee the OP and others have mentioned and which the public sector should adopt:

• occupational sick pay having eligibility conditions including a sliding scale for many weeks/months it was payable based on length of service. You’d only get a maximum of full pay for up to 3 months at 1 company I’ve worked and at another it was only very long-serving staff who were entitled to 6 months. At 2 companies I’ve worked if you’d already been off sick and paid occupational sick pay within a rolling 12 months, you would only be paid statutory sick pay (SSP) for second, third etc absences. Sickness absences due to injuries from playing sport or at the gym would only be paid SSP too. Additionally if formal action like a disciplinary investigation or PIP had commenced and the employee went off sick, they’d only be paid SSP. They could appeal this but in most cases appeals were rejected. Lo and behold employees would then engage with the process or come back to work.

• attendance policies having greater flexibility to commence action at appropriate stages when you had cases of patterns of absence. I’ve dealt with so many cases where employees had triggered stage 2 or 3 (sometimes even the last stage) and then managed to stay at work for the duration of the warning period but went off sick again within weeks. At several employers I’ve worked, the policy allowed for the process to be recommenced from the last stage, so you weren’t going back to square 1. Much better way of doing things.

• medical capability procedures being commended much earlier. 1 company I worked for was really on the ball with this and you’d get cases being started when the employee had only been off for a few months. I will say at first I thought it was a bit extreme, however it had desired effects. You’d be having the conversations about whether there were things that could be explored, to help the employee back to work, earlier. They’ve done studies that show the longer someone is off sick, the less likelier they’ll return. Early intervention is missed by a lot of organisations. You’d also find as soon as that capability meeting invite letter went out, warning dismissal could be an outcome, certain employees would miraculously recover. Wonder why!

In terms of employees who play the system, something I have also found in 80% of the cases is when you look at their absence history, without fail they’ll have been absent for similar periods of time. We had 1 employee, who was a big rugby fan and always absent between February and April every year. Gee, I wonder what’s played between those months. The 6 Nations? Well, what a surprise.

Had employees who were always absent just before and after Christmas multiple years on the trot, just before school holidays etc too.

I know of someone who went off on long term stress leave in order to write a novel.

To the person thinking about self harm, get help - Samaritans or elsewhere.

Thank you OP for so articulately continuing to defend the exhausted managers.
XenoBitch I am assuming you’re not a manager or someone who has ever been affected by other people just choosing not to come in to work. What do you think work/taxpayers owe you? Is there any limit on it? What is that limit?

Of course I have been affected by colleagues not coming into work.
In my job, we were a team of 3. If one went off sick we struggled a lot. But that was up to management to sort out regarding cover etc. Not us, and if it was not sorted, we would not blame the person off sick.
But if someone is off sick, we should not be privy to the reason why, and we would certainly not think they were "choosing" not to come in.
Although some people took the piss in other ways. One guy was always late. Rocked up 2 hours late once because he said he had to go the bank and pay some bills. He got moved to a whole different hospital. Could not sack him as he kept played the racism card.

I worked in the private sector and we had the same policy. It was much appreciated when I developed severe tendinitis. You do t k ow what these people are going through though. I heat the same company sacked someone who went sick every Friday and Monday